PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

I wonder what the militaries will settle at against drones in RWSes. I won't make statements with confidence because it would require field data. Contestants:

- Calibers from 7.62 mm to 20 mm (expanding to 40 mm with lower velocity cartridges)
- Munitions types from duplex to shotgun shots to nets to AHEAD ammo
- Cannon types would be anything from simple GPMGs to externally driven revolver guns

Examples:

Simple RWS for a Mengshi or a logistical truck: Heavy barrel 7.62 mm MG with a rate of fire of 1800. Uses duplex rounds to increase the effective rate to 3600.

Medium RWS for 8x8s, convoy leaders, IFVs and SPGs: Same as above but with 12.7 mm.

Gucci RWS for MBTs and tracked SPGs: 20 mm dual-feed externally driven revolver gun. AHEAD for distant engagements and shotgun shells for near ones.

BoraTas said:

I wonder what the militaries will settle at against drones in RWSes. I won't make statements with confidence because it would require field data. Contestants:

- Calibers from 7.62 mm to 20 mm (expanding to 40 mm with lower velocity cartridges)
- Munitions types from duplex to shotgun shots to nets to AHEAD ammo
- Cannon types would be anything from simple GPMGs to externally driven revolver guns

Examples:

Simple RWS for a Mengshi or a logistical truck: Heavy barrel 7.62 mm MG with a rate of fire of 1800. Uses duplex rounds to increase the effective rate to 3600.

Medium RWS for 8x8s, convoy leaders, IFVs and SPGs: Same as above but with 12.7 mm.

Gucci RWS for MBTs and tracked SPGs: 20 mm dual-feed externally driven revolver gun. AHEAD for distant engagements and shotgun shells for near ones.

Click to expand...

Good thing is that we'll know soon enough on 9.3

BoraTas said:

I wonder what the militaries will settle at against drones in RWSes. I won't make statements with confidence because it would require field data. Contestants:

- Calibers from 7.62 mm to 20 mm (expanding to 40 mm with lower velocity cartridges)
- Munitions types from duplex to shotgun shots to nets to AHEAD ammo
- Cannon types would be anything from simple GPMGs to externally driven revolver guns

Examples:

Simple RWS for a Mengshi or a logistical truck: Heavy barrel 7.62 mm MG with a rate of fire of 1800. Uses duplex rounds to increase the effective rate to 3600.

Medium RWS for 8x8s, convoy leaders, IFVs and SPGs: Same as above but with 12.7 mm.

Gucci RWS for MBTs and tracked SPGs: 20 mm dual-feed externally driven revolver gun. AHEAD for distant engagements and shotgun shells for near ones.

Click to expand...

Laser to ionize the air, combined with a Tesla coil

In all seriousness, some kind of auto targeting 7.62mm GPMG, with powerful servos and precise recoil control, may be the most logistically friendly weapon. Easier to upgrade targeting than the weapons system as well

leibowitz said:

Laser to ionize the air, combined with a Tesla coil

In all seriousness, some kind of auto targeting 7.62mm GPMG, with powerful servos and precise recoil control, may be the most logistically friendly weapon. Easier to upgrade targeting than the weapons system as well

Click to expand...

Those are not cheap and not easy to maintain.

Counter FPV might be an actual legitimate niche for metal storm at long last.

Another cheap off-the-shelf option is specialist new rounds for the ubiquitous humble smoke grenade launchers.

Add a couple of sets of additional launchers to cover the back and top and you have 360 coverage. Add in optical sensors for warning and you can have a semi-autonomous system that can unleash directional frag/concussion/flashbangs/net rounds/whatever and good old fashioned smoke rounds if any drones gets within xx metres in any direction, all at a fraction of the cost of new RWS that are precise and fast enough to track FPVs with anything close to acceptable kill rates.

plawolf said:

Counter FPV might be an actual legitimate niche for metal storm at long last.

Another cheap off-the-shelf option is specialist new rounds for the ubiquitous humble smoke grenade launchers.

Add a couple of sets of additional launchers to cover the back and top and you have 360 coverage. Add in optical sensors for warning and you can have a semi-autonomous system that can unleash directional frag/concussion/flashbangs/net rounds/whatever and good old fashioned smoke rounds if any drones gets within xx metres in any direction, all at a fraction of the cost of new RWS that are precise and fast enough to track FPVs with anything close to acceptable kill rates.

Click to expand...

Metal storm is a fire once and done deal. Reloading will be a pretty big challenge.

vincent said:

Those are not cheap and not easy to maintain.

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Mass produced those would be maybe several thousand or tens of thousands of USD protecting a several million dollar tank. That's well worth it. If your servos are properly assembled and the components receive dirt/water sleeves they shouldn't require heavy maintenance regardless, at least not significantly more maintenance than any unmanned machine gun would need.

dasCKD said:

Mass produced those would be maybe several thousand or tens of thousands of USD protecting a several million dollar tank. That's well worth it. If your servos are properly assembled and the components receive dirt/water sleeves they shouldn't require heavy maintenance regardless, at least not significantly more maintenance than any unmanned machine gun would need.

Click to expand...

Those RWSs with guns (not shotguns) need to be highly precise since off even 0.5 degree means missing the targets. There is no way for them to be cheap even if mass produced. There is no way for maintenance to be cheap either. The RWS has to reduce the effects of vibration from the tank as well.

A problem with the RWS or multi-projectile weapons is the coordination of fires to engage and destroy/disrupt the small UAS (sUAS). A lot eternal Soldiers (crew on what exposed out of the hatch to support personnel during refueling operations or chow to accompanying infantry) would be exposed to unnecessary fragmental damage if there is not control.
Oh and 'lasers' as a form of defense against sUAS is not well developed and apparently less than capable in dust/weather/smoke conditions. Consider that most militaries have in their Artillery smoke anti-laser or laser disrupting properties, the laser may not be the solution. Also the laser base defense needs power, a lot of it. I don't see an MBT design team slicing off power to a laser when other forms (APS or RWS or EW) that use less power are a better use of such power.

All great ideas, but tanks don't operate by themselves, they operate as a part of a larger team. Part of that team is air defense. There is self air defense which is an age old tactic with now a different form (from aircraft to helos to sUAS).

I would think that the PLA next Gen MBT will have a more sophisticated form of APS package that is adaptable and modular to counter not only sUAS, Lottering munitions or ATGMs.

Just my thought, but hey I am a Dumb Tanker.....

siegecrossbow said:

Metal storm is a fire once and done deal. Reloading will be a pretty big challenge.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily true in either case. You can do bursts with metal storm rather than blast off the whole tube in one go.

Reloading could also be made quick and easy if designed that way as all you need to do is take out the spent tube and insert a new one.

It would be time consuming to do, but then this links to my earlier point about such anti drone defences being designed to take out the odd leaker or the brunt of an ambush attack before dedicated anti drone systems can react. It’s not meant to make every tank impervious to all drone attacks, as the costs for such a ridiculous individual vehicle level protection would be disproportionately and prohibitively expensive, not to mention the performance penalties and compromises needed to add such a system to individual vehicles.

Western MBT designs already suffer to a large extent with this obsession with invincibility where they are massively expensive and heavy, but end up dying just as easily in Ukraine to all manor of traditional and new concept weapons just as easily as obsolete T72s.