PLA Next Generation Main Battle Tank

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Entire tank designed around APS seems appropriate since APS is an optional upgrade to basically any tank.
Bolt on lacks a certain elegance besides it also adds weight to the final product. Farther other tank systems like RWS can end up in the unfortunate position of being damaged by a bolt on system. This also encourages a crew to want to be buttoned up.
Additionally a mix of APS can be added to a vehicle from the start better than one later as a bolt on. Soft and hard kill.

Hybrid or full electric propulsion should be the defining feature of next gen tank. Reliability and logistic/supply chain demands might make this a questionable thing though. I mean you can transport diesel quite easily, you can't easily transport massive generators everywhere AND the diesel to power them. You also would need charging stations to move with your ground forces. How do you design charging stations to be survivable etc.
Full EV Combat vehicles aren’t ready yet. Hybrid is. It turns the vehicle engine in to a generator and allows more power for systems. Improved fuel economy is a bonus if done right as well as reducing maintenance on old school mechanical transmissions.
Unmanned turret is a nice to have especially wrt crew survival against top attack munitions. It still doesn't guarantee crew. So I'd say this one is optional. A really thick hull necessary for unmanned turret can be a mobility constraint for urban environments.
Most of the problems with turrets has been ammo stowage in Carousel tanks being under your crew in a position where in the effects of a penetration into the fighting compartment easily feed into the magazine and then the whole thing goes boom. The question for the Chinese is can they shift the crew to the hull? Do they have the space? The T14 was scratch built for it. AbramsX, K51 and EMBT are using western hulls which with some reconfiguration created enough room. Though I could easily see a T72 or Type 99 hull with a two man compartment it might be a tight squeeze.
You can integrate UAV and UGV now with any tank. Having a dedicated ground up designed nesting area for a UAV is just really not that necessary. UAVs are already very well integrated with PLA ground forces and every aspect of warfare. Making the tank have a charging station and landing spot for a dedicated small recon drone is a bit redundant when the force is highly networked and there is no real benefit in individual platform having this own use small UAV. You can simply have a UAV stored inside with the crew to be released by crew when needed. That's a much better engineering solution to the "problem" already.
Small hand held could fit in the fighting compartment but that’s a fairly limited amount of thinking. With a smaller unmanned turret one could imagine a tethered or even launched drone. Long ago in the land of China before the North Koreans bolted ATGMs and MANPADS to their tanks the Chinese had a prototype tank with just such a feature. It wouldn’t be a surprise if the launcher came back but the missile was a drone. AbramsX and KF51 are both already pushing those.
Everything else current generation tanks have and next gen should have.

The thing that really should separate the generations is the adoption of newer technologies that present as advantages overall. In this list, it would only potentially be the new drivetrain. The advantage of massive torque, much simple drivetrains compared to internal combustion, much easier and quicker to manufacture, lighter, smaller, fewer parts and easier to service and repair. Downside to EV MBTs is the logistics.

What are the key elements of a next-gen MBT? From what I've read about various projects worldwide:

Hybrid (diesel-electric) propulsion
Uncrewed turret with bustle autoloader
APS as standard
Integrated UAV (tethered?) and UGV(?)
New type rubber tracks
Improved sensors and connectivity (perhaps built-in telescopic sensor mast)
RWS for modular secondary armament
I would add the following,
C-UAS.
Under armor vision system including panoramic displays.
dive by wire.

C-UAS.
Might remember a couple years back when drones turned one army into a meme. It’s still happened. Though SHORAD systems take a lot of the edge off. Gaps in coverage and the fact that smaller drones have a higher probability of popping up. This is why the EMBT and AbramsX are both being displayed with a big 30x113mm gun. 25 years ago Tank crews might have only used the commanders weapon for infantry. Viewing it as a doctrinal anachronism. A relic from WW2 and Korea when it might have warned away a living pilot.
With the rise of drones from pocket sized to flying Dinner table armed with HE those guns have a mission again but the bigger the gun the better.

Under armor vision including panoramic displays.
Fact is shifting your crew from the turret to the hull limits situational awareness. This isn’t new it’s been known since the first tank lumbered across Flanders. This is why tank commanders in the west have typically operated open canopy looking out. Soviet tankers tended to fight buttoned up this has resulted in some humorous events like Soviet tanks in WW2 getting shot and apparently being none the wiser despite being blasted again and again. Without a system of cameras and displays panoramic and head mounted the crew will basically be sitting dumbfounded as to the world around them. Which in combat is how you end up getting killed.

Drive by wire.
Just like how Attack choppers of the modern era could sit in either station and do their jobs. So to can a tank in a very modern tank. This has certain advantages in regards to situational awareness and communications. Thanks to modern computers you can put your tank crew just about anywhere in the tank and have them do just about anything.
 

alanch90

New Member
Registered Member
I have a gut feeling that in the next military parade we are going to see a new tank. Does anyone know when the next military parade is going to be?
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
There will very likely be one for 2029, not sure if there would be one before that.
China held a military parade on September 3rd, 2015 to celebrate the 70th anniversary of Victory-over-Japan (VoJ) Day in Beijing.

Perhaps China could hold a military parade in 2025 for the 80th anniversary?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Why 2029 in particular? I'm not familiar with land vehicle timelines.

He means that there will very likely be a parade on 2029, for every decade's anniversary of national day, and that it is unclear if there will be a military parade prior to that.


And it just so happens that on the expected 2029 parade, it might coincide for when the PLA might reveal a new tank design, which they've done in the past at national day parades.
 

by78

General
Bolt on lacks a certain elegance besides it also adds weight to the final product. Farther other tank systems like RWS can end up in the unfortunate position of being damaged by a bolt on system. This also encourages a crew to want to be buttoned up.
Additionally a mix of APS can be added to a vehicle from the start better than one later as a bolt on. Soft and hard kill.


Full EV Combat vehicles aren’t ready yet. Hybrid is. It turns the vehicle engine in to a generator and allows more power for systems. Improved fuel economy is a bonus if done right as well as reducing maintenance on old school mechanical transmissions.

Most of the problems with turrets has been ammo stowage in Carousel tanks being under your crew in a position where in the effects of a penetration into the fighting compartment easily feed into the magazine and then the whole thing goes boom. The question for the Chinese is can they shift the crew to the hull? Do they have the space? The T14 was scratch built for it. AbramsX, K51 and EMBT are using western hulls which with some reconfiguration created enough room. Though I could easily see a T72 or Type 99 hull with a two man compartment it might be a tight squeeze.

Small hand held could fit in the fighting compartment but that’s a fairly limited amount of thinking. With a smaller unmanned turret one could imagine a tethered or even launched drone. Long ago in the land of China before the North Koreans bolted ATGMs and MANPADS to their tanks the Chinese had a prototype tank with just such a feature. It wouldn’t be a surprise if the launcher came back but the missile was a drone. AbramsX and KF51 are both already pushing those.



I would add the following,
C-UAS.
Under armor vision system including panoramic displays.
dive by wire.

C-UAS.
Might remember a couple years back when drones turned one army into a meme. It’s still happened. Though SHORAD systems take a lot of the edge off. Gaps in coverage and the fact that smaller drones have a higher probability of popping up. This is why the EMBT and AbramsX are both being displayed with a big 30x113mm gun. 25 years ago Tank crews might have only used the commanders weapon for infantry. Viewing it as a doctrinal anachronism. A relic from WW2 and Korea when it might have warned away a living pilot.
With the rise of drones from pocket sized to flying Dinner table armed with HE those guns have a mission again but the bigger the gun the better.

Under armor vision including panoramic displays.
Fact is shifting your crew from the turret to the hull limits situational awareness. This isn’t new it’s been known since the first tank lumbered across Flanders. This is why tank commanders in the west have typically operated open canopy looking out. Soviet tankers tended to fight buttoned up this has resulted in some humorous events like Soviet tanks in WW2 getting shot and apparently being none the wiser despite being blasted again and again. Without a system of cameras and displays panoramic and head mounted the crew will basically be sitting dumbfounded as to the world around them. Which in combat is how you end up getting killed.

Drive by wire.
Just like how Attack choppers of the modern era could sit in either station and do their jobs. So to can a tank in a very modern tank. This has certain advantages in regards to situational awareness and communications. Thanks to modern computers you can put your tank crew just about anywhere in the tank and have them do just about anything.

I think they could make more hull space available by installing an unmanned turret that doesn't penetrate into the hull. Instead of an autoloader located in a basket under the turret, a bustle loader can be used. The space otherwise occupied by the basket can then be divided between the crew and the engine compartment; this would give both more length to work with, but not width. However, if we assume a crew size of two, the width of the crew compartment is probably not an issue to begin with. More length would allow the crew to sit lower, thereby reducing the total area of exposure that would have to be protected and allowing more efficient use of sloped armor. The downsides are bustle compartment might not store as many rounds as one that's in a turret basket, but I'm more worried about repair and maintenance access to the engine compartment, when certain powerpack elements could be under the turret and harder to get to.
 
Last edited:

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I think they could make more hull space available by installing an unmanned turret that doesn't penetrate into the hull. Instead of an autoloader located in a basket under the turret, a bustle loader can be used. The space otherwise occupied by the basket can then be divided between the crew and the engine compartment; this would give both more length to work with, but not width. However, if we assume a crew size of two, the width of the crew compartment is probably not an issue to begin with. More length would allow the crew to sit lower, thereby reducing the total area of exposure that would have to be protected and allowing more efficient use of sloped armor. The downsides are bustle compartment might not store as many rounds as one that's in a turret basket, but I'm more worried about repair and maintenance access to the engine compartment, when certain powerpack elements could be under the turret and harder to get to.
In theory.
I am not sure you could make a non penetrating turret solution due to the recoil of an MBT gun. I mean an IFV gun is one thing but an MBT gun is a beast. even the armor mass is likely to be an issue unless you leave it unarmored.
Next the Bustle loader generally works best with a unitary round. The Chinese tank gun system is based on the Soviet binary ammunition system. So you would end up in a position where a choice to change guns might be required.
As to capacity. Which ever source you want will list any number of rounds. Army reco claims 22 rounds which is fairly conservative. I have seen some wild ones like 39 but that’s not likely in my opinion due to the size of the tank vs the size of the loader. 22 Is the same number as it’s Soviet counterparts T72 and T90 and a realistic number due to volume. 22 rounds is the same number of rounds used in Leclerc’s bustle loader. Meggit’s old Compact Autoloader which was developed for the Abrams held 34. So magazine capacity between the two isn’t a big difference. The real question then is the juice worth the squeeze? If they chose an unmanned turret and compartmented crew then the bustle is kinda a question on if you want to then go farther and change your Gun to a new caliber? Because if you want to keep the current caliber then why change loaders? If you want to change the loader then the current ammunition is inefficient for the loader.
Farther though is the question of if you are making so many changes why keep your current hull? If you designed a new hull you could solve all those problems. Yes AbramsX used an existing hull as does EMBT and KF51 Panther but remember, those are all demonstration vehicles. EMBT is basically a kitbash of a Leclerc turret on a Leopard 2 hull with lots of new features being bolted on until they decide what they want on the final product. When that happens in all likelihood a new hull will be part of it creating the MGCS z new tank.
The K51 Panther is a Rhinemetall product offering primarily for a new turret the hull is a leopard 2, Leopard 2 is a KNW product not Rhinemetall. KNW is not very happy with Rhinemetall over KF51. So I strongly expected when we look at the modifications made between the Leopard 2 base hull and KF51 at some point down the line Rhinemetall will offer a new hull design.
AbramsX is basically a Component test bed. In theory it could become a new version of Abrams if the Army chose to as a transitional vehicle. However it could just as likely be that the Army uses it as a starting point for a Abrams Successor which is inevitable.

The crew of two. This is a valid point to a point. First. To get the crew into the hull you have to make space. AbramsX and Abrams TTB both made space by removing fuel cells TTB of course never left the testing grounds so it could trade significant range for its configuration without issue. AbramsX keeps the same range as existing Abrams tank’s because it replaces the AGT 1500 turbine for a 6 Cylinder opposed piston 21.5 L single stroke 1500hp engine mated to a Hybrid electric transmission. This is gives it 1.3 time the fuel economy of the MTU engine commonly toted as better than the Gas Turbine.
EMBT and Panther KF51 both take their space From removal of the Spare magazines in the hull of the tanks. Leopard 2 stows extra ammunition to the drivers left. Removing this gives the tank a larger space in the hull.
Now in the Existing VT4/Type99 family hight isn’t an issue, length isn’t an issue. You already have a tank crewman in the hull. statistics show the turret is the part of the tank most often hit in combat. Width is the issue. The PLA is very conservative I doubt a two man crew. Now could they make space? It’s possible with trades. You have to decide what you can move elsewhere in the tank and what you can trade. Leopard 2 looses ammunition for EMBT and KF51. Abrams lost fuel but kept its range. T14 tried to not make such trades but the Russian MIC failed.
 
Top