PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

[Blitzo]

.could you elaborate on this?

I'm just saying that primacy and worthwhile gauge of the parameters of air combat is shifting much more to situational awareness and stealth, than kinematic performance.

The biggest gains of combat effectiveness lies in stealth, situational awareness, payloads, rather than if you can turn a bit better than your enemy or if you can accelerate a bit faster than your enemy.


Kinematic performance will suffer from diminishing returns much more than stealth, situational awareness and payloads.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

I'm just saying that primacy and worthwhile gauge of the parameters of air combat is shifting much more to situational awareness and stealth, than kinematic performance.

The biggest gains of combat effectiveness lies in stealth, situational awareness, payloads, rather than if you can turn a bit better than your enemy or if you can accelerate a bit faster than your enemy.


Kinematic performance will suffer from diminishing returns much more than stealth, situational awareness and payloads.

You know what, I buy it. It used to annoy me when Americans referred to the J-20 as an interceptor intended to attack American force multipliers like AEW and tankers. They intended this to mean that the J-20 wouldn't dare get into a fight with an F-22, but the idea itself is sound. I don't think the J-20 or any 5th gen could successfully perform that mission against an adequately protected AEW because the target itself would cue the defenders against the attacker. But with broadband stealth that mission becomes much more doable.

The way I see the Chinese 6th gen, it should do to enemy sky what the H-20 does to enemy ground: attack high value targets with impunity. Degrade the opposing system of systems to the point where the crucial connecting nodes of the network are destroyed and what remains is blind, deaf, and stupid.

Given that, I see your ranked ordering as right (although perhaps I would swap payload and speed to be able to attack time-sensitive targets, of which there are much more in the air) - broadband stealth to be invisible to enemy IADS and operate with impunity, situational awareness to be able to hunt targets autonomously, payload to be able to attack several large targets successfully (and self-defence should you be unfortunate), speed to get in and out quickly, and kinematics to at least be able to dodge attackers enough to survive.

 

[Blitzo]

You know what, I buy it. It used to annoy me when Americans referred to the J-20 as an interceptor intended to attack American force multipliers like AEW and tankers. They intended this to mean that the J-20 wouldn't dare get into a fight with an F-22, but the idea itself is sound. I don't think the J-20 or any 5th gen could successfully perform that mission against an adequately protected AEW because the target itself would cue the defenders against the attacker. But with broadband stealth that mission becomes much more doable.

The way I see the Chinese 6th gen, it should do to enemy sky what the H-20 does to enemy ground: attack high value targets with impunity. Degrade the opposing system of systems to the point where the crucial connecting nodes of the network are destroyed and what remains is blind, deaf, and stupid.

Given that, I see your ranked ordering as right (although perhaps I would swap payload and speed to be able to attack time-sensitive targets, of which there are much more in the air) - broadband stealth to be invisible to enemy IADS and operate with impunity, situational awareness to be able to hunt targets autonomously, payload to be able to attack several large targets successfully (and self-defence should you be unfortunate), speed to get in and out quickly, and kinematics to at least be able to dodge attackers enough to survive.

6th generation fighters and their MUMT UCAVs will be designed to hunt down and fight opposing 6th gen fighters and opposing MUMT UCAVs and opposing 5th (and 4th gen) fighters as well.

While hunting down enemy high value aerial targets would be a role, it would be a general air superiority fighter rather than a dedicated interceptor against aerial high value targets.

That's because in the future, many aspects of the enemy's system of systems will become more dispersed and distributed and attritable as well.


A certain level of speed will be necessary, but range and endurance and the ability to carry a large variety and large payloads will provide more benefits to the general air superiority mission.
The ability to stay in the air longer over the mission area, to carry a greater variety of weapons and weapons of greater size, will benefit you more than being able to achieve a top speed of half a Mach more that you won't use that often (and which will end up increasing your IR signature when you do so anyhow).


The battle for air superiority will become a real time strategy game rather than a first person shooter.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

6th generation fighters and their MUMT UCAVs will be designed to hunt down and fight opposing 6th gen fighters and opposing MUMT UCAVs and opposing 5th (and 4th gen) fighters as well.

I thought about that too, but how would they even find each other? Broadband stealth is very hard to defeat.

 

[Andy1974]

I thought about that too, but how would they even find each other? Broadband stealth is very hard to defeat.

They are not invisible, they emit a lot of IR, they have a huge impact on the environment around them and are extremely loud. If you can mass produce cheap drones that can fly for a long time you can just saturate an area indefinitely and detect them.

Chinas radars can already detect F-35s from great range.

Lasers can be used to detect them.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

They are not invisible, they emit a lot of IR

IR detection is inherently limited, the radiation is attenuated by the atmosphere.

they have a huge impact in the environment around them and are extremely loud.

I hope you're not actually seriously proposing sound as a way to detect aircraft at any tactically significant distance.

If you can mass produce cheap drones that can fly for a long time you can just saturate an area indefinitely and detect them.

Sure, man. If I had god mode it would all be very easy, but I don't.

Chinas radars can already detect F-35s from great range.

F-35s are not broadband stealth, no 5th gen fighter is. In addition to that, the radars used to detect them are massive

They exploit features like V-tails that would be absent in a 6th gen. Furthermore, low frequency radars like ^ are to detect 5th gens, not target them. The best they can do is cue friendly 5th gens to intercept enemy ones. 6th gens wouldn't even be detectable like this.

Lasers can be used to detect them.

How?

 

[enroger]

I thought about that too, but how would they even find each other? Broadband stealth is very hard to defeat.

Just get close enough. How to get close enough? Get lots of drones forming a wall of drones sweeping the sky

 

[Andy1974]

Just get close enough. How to get close enough? Get lots of drones forming a wall of drones sweeping the sky

Yeah. All linked by laser.

 

[Andy1974]

IR detection is inherently limited, the radiation is attenuated by the atmosphere.

I hope you're not actually seriously proposing sound as a way to detect aircraft at any tactically significant distance.

Sure, man. If I had god mode it would all be very easy, but I don't.

F-35s are not broadband stealth, no 5th gen fighter is. In addition to that, the radars used to detect them are massive

They exploit features like V-tails that would be absent in a 6th gen. Furthermore, low frequency radars like ^ are to detect 5th gens, not target them. The best they can do is cue friendly 5th gens to intercept enemy ones. 6th gens wouldn't even be detectable like this.

How?

IR detection has advanced significantly fast in recent years, as has IR lasers. used together you have an effective means to detect stealth aircraft.

Laser shoots target, which heats up and is detected by IR sensor.

Sound waves can be detected by lasers too.

Broadband stealth does not necessarily include stealth optimization from above or below, China has many satellites and fishing boats.

 

[Blitzo]

I thought about that too, but how would they even find each other? Broadband stealth is very hard to defeat.

MUMT sensor shooter UCAVs operating hundreds of km ahead of your 6th fighters, highly networked, with emphasis on strong network density.


The side with superior networking density will have superior situational awareness and the advantage in contesting the air.