PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Just another idea concerning that mysterious shape found at CAC: I found this somewhere on my harddrive allegedly showing some sort of a "Loyal Wingman" UAV. I know it is different and has tails and two engines but at least the wing geometry is similar ...

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IMO "similar wing geometry" for a delta with angled trailing edges is so generic and likely to be applicable on so many different types of platforms, that any similarity is likely just superficial.


It's very possible that this tailless airframe itself is unmanned, but I would be very very hesitant to tie it to any specifically depicted concept that we've seen yet.
Given it has been laying out there able to be caught on satellite across multiple images across differing months, suggests to me it is some sort of demonstrator whose purpose has already been fulfilled and was moved out into the open to make space for something else. If it were the prototype of a specific new actively defined aircraft, it wouldn't have been left there.


Needless to say, flying a tailless delta flying demonstrator of relatively large size (14m long x 12m wingspan), regardless of whether the demonstrator itself is manned or unmanned, could have multiple applications. The lead of which of course is 6th gen, but also for general UCAV/loyal wingman purposes.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
IMO "similar wing geometry" for a delta with angled trailing edges is so generic and likely to be applicable on so many different types of platforms, that any similarity is likely just superficial.


It's very possible that this tailless airframe itself is unmanned, but I would be very very hesitant to tie it to any specifically depicted concept that we've seen yet.
Given it has been laying out there able to be caught on satellite across multiple images across differing months, suggests to me it is some sort of demonstrator whose purpose has already been fulfilled and was moved out into the open to make space for something else. If it were the prototype of a specific new actively defined aircraft, it wouldn't have been left there.


Needless to say, flying a tailless delta flying demonstrator of relatively large size (14m long x 12m wingspan), regardless of whether the demonstrator itself is manned or unmanned, could have multiple applications. The lead of which of course is 6th gen, but also for general UCAV/loyal wingman purposes.
I think understanding the general direction of aerodynamic designs here might help us get a better grasp of the overall situation with any future models or airframes we might see. Primarily, it seems a lot of design focus for 6th gen fighters in both China and in other countries is moving towards LEVCON+LERX+Delta+Body lift+TVC, probably due to an emphasis on advanced over body vortex control as a key mechanism for lift control. Thus it wouldn’t surprise me if we see these design principles translated to both fighter UAVs and a 6th gen manned fighter, just as an application of a shared set of principles for designs that are geared towards the same roles.
 

Blitzo

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I think understanding the general direction of aerodynamic designs here might help us get a better grasp of the overall situation with any future models or airframes we might see. Primarily, it seems a lot of design focus for 6th gen fighters in both China and in other countries is moving towards LEVCON+LERX+Delta+Body lift+TVC, probably due to an emphasis on advanced over body vortex control as a key mechanism for lift control. Thus it wouldn’t surprise me if we see these design principles translated to both fighter UAVs and a 6th gen manned fighter, just as an application of a shared set of principles for designs that are geared towards the same roles.

I fully expect 6th gen aircraft and future more refined UCAVs/loyal wingman to share certain aerodynamic features.

But in terms of what Deino posted, I think the depicted UCAVs in the slide show are simultaneously too generic yet not sharing the same key detail of the tailless CAC airframe (specifically, the tailless part).


That NPU placard said they verified four 6th generation planforms in flight.
I wouldn't be surprised if all of them were variations upon a tailless delta/flying wing, but with perhaps slightly varying geometries and slightly varying control surface emphases.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the R&D done for them ends up on a whole bunch of other future aircraft going forwards, including UCAVs.

===

Two of the most convincing public domain planforms investigated I've come across with 6th gen applications...

... is the ICE investigated by Lockmart in the US, and the similar mystery project from AVIC, both of which are basically high speed flying wings with a bunch of things like moving wingtips, spoilerons, differential LEF.

Lockmart ICE:


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latenlazy

Brigadier
... and followed by the AVIC project, including gifs of the aircraft doing spin simulation where we can see the all moving wing tip on one side deployed

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On second thought, after thinking about the broader reasons that are probably driving this trend towards tailles deltas with novel control features, there’s I think a strong case to be made that future UAV and manned fighter designs might divergent rather convergent on their design principles…

To start, I think maybe three things are driving this design direction for manned fighters, 1) superior missile sensors+kinematics are driving an emphasis on defensive rather than offensive maneuvers, so designs that feature lower drag at transonic and supersonic regimes are favored 2) attaining even higher stealth performance becomes more essential for these fighters to both fulfill and survive their roles, which means optimizing for shape and reducing protruding surface geometries as much as possible, 3) advances in computation means progressive discovery of new kinds of aerodynamic interactions with novel geometries, and also more sophisticated flight control schemes, which generally translates to manipulation of flow conditions with methods that are more passive, indirect, or require minimal deflections.

Deriving from point 1), it would make even more sense for future manned fighters to be optimized more for defensive tactics if a primary role is to serve as a control node for other planes in systematized combat tactics, which means it might make more sense for unmanned fighters to be optimized more for offensive tactics, which translates to a different set of aerodynamic optimizations.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Since the next generation fighting theater is planned to be the Pacific it is hardly surprising we are seeing these large winged designs to increase aircraft range. The designers also expect next generation sensors and missiles, not to mention drones, to reduce the need for close range dogfighting. So we get these designs as a result. To be honest I think this is a step too far and the canard fighter design above is much more rational.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Since the next generation fighting theater is planned to be the Pacific it is hardly surprising we are seeing these large winged designs to increase aircraft range. The designers also expect next generation sensors and missiles, not to mention drones, to reduce the need for close range dogfighting. So we get these designs as a result. To be honest I think this is a step too far and the canard fighter design above is much more rational.
One main point of studying novel new aerodynamic configurations is to reduce the tradeoffs between optimization for different flight envelopes and conditions. You may not need canards if you can find a different method to get the same benefits while also gaining performance parameters elsewhere.
 

Blitzo

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Since the next generation fighting theater is planned to be the Pacific it is hardly surprising we are seeing these large winged designs to increase aircraft range. The designers also expect next generation sensors and missiles, not to mention drones, to reduce the need for close range dogfighting. So we get these designs as a result. To be honest I think this is a step too far and the canard fighter design above is much more rational.

Fighter aircraft generations are often defined by what new capabilities they offer compared to the previous -- however, there also exists .5 generation fighters.
Everyone is aware of 4.5th gen aircraft, and upgraded 3rd generation fighters are also well known and can be called "3.5 gen".
I expect there to be 5.5th generation fighters as well.

Those .5 generation variants are often characterized by subsystems of the next generation that they are able to bring to the existing generation.
However, those .5 generation aircraft are unable to attain the physical characteristics of the airframes of the next generation of aircraft.
For example, 4.5th generation aircraft do not have the extensive stealth shaping of 5th generation aircraft, nor their internal weapons bays as those are the airframe defining features of a 5th generation aircraft. Sure, a 4.5th generation aircraft can be equipped with very capable sensors, avionics, datalinks and weaponry of a 5th generation aircraft, but they do not possess a 5th generation airframe.


That leaves us in a position to ask what will be the physical airframe defining features of a 6th generation aircraft?

I believe those features will include:
- Significantly greater stealth and so called "broadband stealth," compared to 5th generation aircraft
- Significantly greater range/combat radius/endurance compared to 5th generation aircraft
- Significantly greater internal weapons bay/magazine capacity compared to 5th generation aircraft
- Perhaps conformal/fuselage integrated sensors to a significantly greater degree than 5th generation aircraft

.... and those first three airframe features, IMO, will mean that I think 6th generation aircraft are going to be larger, more stealthy, and less maneuverable than 5th generation predecessors.

So, unless you're operating off a carrier where you require the better low speed handling and extra control that canards and/or some sort of V tails can offer, I think a 6th generation fighter would ideally be a tailless delta, without canards.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
My three cents:

Whenever discussing "fighter generations" we should always remember that this classification is not meaningful and is fundamentally a PR device.

"Fighter generations" existed in historical analyses but only entered common parlance as consequence of PR campaign for Lockheed during the development of F-22 and F-35. In the 90s the budgets and support for the aircraft were threatened and Lockheed has banked everything on their production leveraging itself to the brink of bankruptcy to acquire the necessary production capabilities. That was when journalists and lobbyists everywhere suddenly started talking about "fifth generation" which was so fundamentally superior to "fourth generation" that not funding the program would threaten American security. The F-35 scam was promoted by playing up "4.5th gens" that only "5th gens" could counter.

Currently we have generally accepted criteria for distinguishing the generations of fighters but they are not truly rigorous. What is certain is that generations are not defined by their airframe. They are however defined by a single core trait that influences the overall design and this core trait must be inherited in subsequent generation.

This is how I would classify fighter generations according to their core traits:

1st gen - jet engine
2nd gen - supersonic speed
3rd gen - multirole capabilities enabled by sensors
4th gen - enhanced kinematics and maneuverability
5th gen - VLO
6th gen - AI pilot a.k.a "optionally manned"

If you take a moment to think about those core traits you'll see that they define all the other traits. For example 5th gen VLO requires a different approach to situational awareness and 6th gen AI pilot requires extensive networking. You can have 5th gen sensors in a 4th gen airframe but you don't have to. But you can't have a truly VLO aircraft with 4th gen sensor approach.

The trait without which the rest doesn't exist as a necessary set should be always the defining trait much like it is done in the study of evolution of life.

The third generation is the most confusing because it lacks distinct change to airframe design that characterized transitions between 1st and 2nd as well as 4th and 5th and that's usually as far as journos understand - hence confusion. For example MiG-21 begins as a 2nd gen fighter which is modified until it becomes a 3rd gen (bis) or 3.5 gen (LanceR). F-4 begins as a 2nd gen but is a 3rd gen for most of its service. F-14 is sometimes defined as 4th generation when it is clearly a late 3rd gen. It is also often missed that 3rd gen is the "sensor generation" and "BVR generation" because the capability is associated with 4th gen due to Reagan era propaganda and Desert Storm.

The "half generations" again are consequence of PR campaign for upgraded 4th gen fighters with capabilities from the 5th generation set suggesting that the aircraft is "halfway there". It wouldn't exist if 5th generation wasn't promoted as a set of capabilities to expand funding.

The concept of "half generations" hovewer has absolutely no meaning beyond 4th gen. You can upgrade a 3rd gen aircraft with modern systems from 5th gen aircraft. How will you classify it? It's both more and less than 4th gen. If 6th gen's core trait is AI pilot as I suggested then literally any airframe can have the core 6th gen trait without inheriting anything else from previous generations. At some point upgrades to 5th gen aircraft might make it a proper 6th gen.

"Fighter generations" is just a way to pretend that you say a lot when you are saying very little. It is a PR device. If we want to have a meaningful discussion we should avoid "word salads" that are so beloved by journalists, especially in the mainstream, because that's how you get an article worth of text without anything being said.

That leaves us in a position to ask what will be the physical airframe defining features of a 6th generation aircraft?

I believe those features will include:
- Significantly greater stealth and so called "broadband stealth," compared to 5th generation aircraft
- Significantly greater range/combat radius/endurance compared to 5th generation aircraft
- Significantly greater internal weapons bay/magazine capacity compared to 5th generation aircraft
- Perhaps conformal/fuselage integrated sensors to a significantly greater degree than 5th generation aircraft

By this logic F-15 and F-16 are different generations when they are simply different types of aircraft.

This is an image from CSBA's report on future trends in air combat. Their idea of a "fighter" looks very similar to a certain 1980/90s bomber which in turn is based on German WW2 designs.

Bombers obviously do not follow "fighter generations" and 6th gen is slated to enter service in the next decade.


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It's the author's subjective, if well explained by data, vision naturally but it shows something crucial - future air combat is going to change more rapidly than in the last few iterations or "generations".

There was less change in air combat from 1975 to 1991 than there was immediately before and after introduction of AMRAAM. Evolution is always a punctuated equilibrium - long periods of relative stability divided by radical transformative change.

I would expect manned 6th gen fighters to have the same payload as they will serve as decision nodes and not payload or sensor platforms.

J-20 and LW.jpg

In my book J-20 can be a 6th gen once it is upgraded with necessary capabilities. Of course the PR for NGAD will make it seem like it can't but I've explained the nature of this process at the beginning of my post.

If your 6th gen can operate effectively outside of enemy sensor rage then it doesn't need magic airframe using "broadband stealth". On that:

"Broadband stealth" is a PR buzzword that is meant to impress people who know nothing about anything. It obfuscates the problem of observability within a spectrum and resolves it by the use of magic words. We should avoid using such dishonest PR terms which aim for a sale rather than a solution.

.... and those first three airframe features, IMO, will mean that I think 6th generation aircraft are going to be larger, more stealthy, and less maneuverable than 5th generation predecessors.

There is no indication that a 6th gen fighter will be less maneuverable than F-35 which for example is more maneuverable (clean) than a loaded F-16 but less maneuverable than a clean F-16. In "beast mode" F-35 is as maneuverable as a thrown brick.

Also "maneuverability" is another buzzword that doesn't describe the actual characteristic. You need different "maneuverability" for dogfighting than for evading missiles. MiG-31 can "outmaneuver" a missile but won't be able to "outmaneuver" an F-22 which in turn will not be able to "outmaneuver" a missile.

6th generation is universally described as a family of systems which will include manned and unmanned aircraft and those will have different kinematic capabilities. There might even be difference in kinematics between manned/optionally manned 6th gens.

We don't even really know what kind of maneuverability will be of primary importance because the two crucial technologies that will provide an evolutionary leap - directed energy weapons and swarms - have not yet been implemented and tested in practice against peer opponent.


So, unless you're operating off a carrier where you require the better low speed handling and extra control that canards and/or some sort of V tails can offer, I think a 6th generation fighter would ideally be a tailless delta, without canards.

My understanding is that canards are not particularly problematic. The biggest problem are vertical stabilizers because they are the largest corner reflector and disrupt VLO at multiple angles, especially as the aircraft is illuminated from the rear or side.

As long as your airframe approximates a single plane it is possible to reduce reflection through shaping and retain LO even when illuminated by a beam that is perpendicular to the airfame's main plane. You can't resolve corner reflectors.

Canards apart from being control surfaces also provide additional lift at the nose (see Su-30MKI). The more your airframe resembles lifting body the less you need that additional lift through traditional surface. An aircraft carrier also has those few extra meters that you can drop after being catapulted to gain lift.

The challenges of shipborne aviation have to do with velocity at takeoff and how it limits mass of payload. As long as you need the pilot in charge of the payload it is a problem of getting optimal mass. Once you do not need all of the payload to be placed on manned fighters
the main problem disappears. More information can be found in boring curves describing mass/velocity ratios for specific cases.

But tailless delta sounds as the optimal direction. Again - YF-23 was "almost a tailless delta" and lost because Lockheed had better PR materials and connections to the people making the call. The competition was resolved on Pentagon's uncertainty about Northrop's ability to deliver on buzzword promises that the Pentagon asked for. That sounds like Lockheed's playbook.

Whatever we do, we should not use Lockheed's playbook to inform ourselves. It's like shooting yourself in the head to achieve nirvana.
 

Richard Santos

Captain
Registered Member
l

F-14 did not acquire multi-role capability until it was living on borrowed time after the need for its primary role had disappeared, so by your definition it wasn’t 3rd generation either. At the same time it was designed to in most respects match the maneuverability and kinematic performance of F-15, but failed during most of the decade and half when it was fulfilling its intended role because the engine it was meant to have was first late and then aborted by defence cut backs. So where does that leave it?

As to G6 being AI, any fighter aircraft can in theory be converted to unmanned or optionally manned operation and given to a computer to fly it automatically under only general mission direction of either an offboard human controler or another computer in another allocation. so AI control might become a common attribute of G6, but it s unsuited to be a defining attribute of G6.
 
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