PLA next/6th generation fighter thread

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Index

Senior Member
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No, holding the horses should not be done to expect the US to prove itself.
Instead, should be holding our horses to see whether China can prove itself (the point of his post was to demonstrate that China is still significantly behind the US in aeroengines, and that China is very much not a global leader).


The natural, obligatory response to the idea of a J-XD having three engines should be one of assuming that it is due to engine deficiencies, until there is a reason to suspect otherwise.
If US can show a comparable platform that doesn't need 3 engines.

I mean if you believe US doesn't need to prove itself because China is quote "very much not a global leader", then it should be no trouble for US to make comparable platforms but with better engines, eliminating the need of 3 engines, in the hypothetical scenario this happens. They are after all "significantly ahead".

So we can be in full agreement on that. No one would have argued US wasn't ahead when it inducted F135 on F-35 ahead of China's 2 5th gens. Until then, hold your horses.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
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The natural, obligatory response to the idea of a J-XD having three engines should be one of assuming that it is due to engine deficiencies, until there is a reason to suspect otherwise.
It's not just engine deficiencies, that's already baked into the cake. It's the conclusion that the Chinese engine industry is so far behind that it has no hope of having a high thrust VCE throughout the lifetime of the J-XD, which will extend into the 2050s. I don't think you appreciate the magnitude (and therefore the likelihood) of your position. It's not that the industry is behind - we all agree that's the case - it's that it's catastrophically behind.

That flies in the face of our understanding of the Chinese state of the art, the state of supporting industries, what's been revealed at Zhuhai, the rumours we've heard from the likes of Liu Daxiang, etc. The situation was far worse in the J-20 era and it was still designed with the hope that it would one day have its intended engines. A three engine design when the US could create a comparable two engine one is essentially giving up hope.
 

Blitzo

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It's not just engine deficiencies, that's already baked into the cake. It's the conclusion that the Chinese engine industry is so far behind that it has no hope of having a high thrust VCE throughout the lifetime of the J-XD, which will extend into the 2050s. I don't think you appreciate the magnitude (and therefore the likelihood) of your position. It's not that the industry is behind - we all agree that's the case - it's that it's catastrophically behind.

That flies in the face of our understanding of the Chinese state of the art, the state of supporting industries, what's been revealed at Zhuhai, the rumours we've heard from the likes of Liu Daxiang, etc. The situation was far worse in the J-20 era and it was still designed with the hope that it would one day have its intended engines.

It doesn't necessarily mean that there's no "hope" of having a high thrust VCE through the lifetime of J-XD, only that there's no hope of having a high thrust VCE through the lifetime of J-XD at such a point of its production where it would make sense to produce a major new variant of it -- it might be the early 2040s for all we know, considering there's a real possibility the "6th generation" of fighter aircraft might be somewhat abbreviated and emerge to become a more distributed system of systems approach by when the "7th generation" might start to be conceived.

Also, it may not necessarily reflect poorly on the Chinese aeroengine industry, but might reflect more on the complexities of high thrust VCEs themselves. For all we know, it might end up being that only one or two nations end up capable of producing high thrust VCEs due to a higher barrier of entry.

A three engine design when the US could create a comparable two engine one is essentially giving up hope.

For the production cycle of J-XD, yes.

(All of the above being that I am not convinced J-XD will be three engined to begin with)


If US can show a comparable platform that doesn't need 3 engines.

I mean if you believe US doesn't need to prove itself because China is quote "very much not a global leader", then it should be no trouble for US to make comparable platforms but with better engines, eliminating the need of 3 engines, in the hypothetical scenario this happens. They are after all "significantly ahead".

So we can be in full agreement on that. No one would have argued US wasn't ahead when it inducted F135 on F-35 ahead of China's 2 5th gens. Until then, hold your horses.

You misunderstand.

I'll put it more plainly -- due to China being behind the US in aeroengine technology now and into the foreseeable future, if there is any Chinese project that adopts an engine configuration that is notably different to that of an equivalent US design, then the most reasonable and prudent default answer is that it is due to Chinese aeroengine deficiencies relative to the US, until there is information that makes us think otherwise.


It is not the US that needs the benefit of doubt, it is China.
 

Gloire_bb

Captain
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Sometimes it's a matter of cost analysis though.

Line of 1/2/3 engined "fighters" flying same ws-10c/15/x engines through their life can be attractive just because of that commonality.

Designing oversized engine is possible on any engine technology level, and larger aircraft by default will abdorb lower engine t:w much better; if that would be the goal, China could've, I don't know, have NK-32s first, and have a domestic solution later.

It can be just not overly rational. That NK-32 program was ridiculously expensive, and by now it still powered altogether a few dozen aircraft.
 

Index

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You misunderstand.

I'll put it more plainly -- due to China being behind the US in aeroengine technology now and into the foreseeable future, if there is any Chinese project that adopts an engine configuration that is notably different to that of an equivalent US design,
We're waiting for that equivalent design. When it comes out (and if a 3 engine J-XD comes out) then we can speak.
then the most reasonable and prudent default answer is that it is due to Chinese aeroengine deficiencies relative to the US, until there is information that makes us think otherwise.
Once US shows that equivalent design, yes.
 

Blitzo

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We're waiting for that equivalent design. When it comes out (and if a 3 engine J-XD comes out) then we can speak.

Once US shows that equivalent design, yes.

No, we don't need the US to have an equivalent design, what we need is for China to to demonstrate non-inferiority to the US aeroengine industry.

The US could build a single engine, F-35 sized manned fighter as their NGAD option and China could build a multi-engine 60t J-XD, and it wouldn't change the premise of this position.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
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Ws-15 has flown, but it isn't a production engine yet. Maybe next year, maybe the year after.

Same on ws-19 - excellent, but not yet. Same on ws-20 (first Chinese high bypass turbofan) - excellent, but not yet.
And now everyone is surprised that variable engine doesn't fly ahead of US. Like, we should be reasonable.
WS-15/WS-20 are in LRIP stage means production Engines but yeah yet to enter in service..
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
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IMO the focus ob engine count is fundementally the wrong way to look it it, if H20 has 4 engines nobody would talk about why its not 2 or 3.

China can obviously build 2 engined fighters and can obviously build a tailless 2 engined 6th gen looking one, so if JXD has 3 engines then the question is why is it that big or what does the 3rd engine do, not why China didnt develop a new engine with 50% more thrust than WS15.

We'll see sooner or later what JXD looks like, if it does have 3 I think it can only be either extra power for DEW, or 3rd engine being a high altitude/high speed type, and if its just for higher MTOW then JXD should be considered as more JHXD
 

Index

Senior Member
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No, we don't need the US to have an equivalent design, what we need is for China to to demonstrate non-inferiority to the US aeroengine industry.

The US could build a single engine, F-35 sized manned fighter as their NGAD option and China could build a multi-engine 60t J-XD, and it wouldn't change the premise of this position.
That is demonstrated by the WS-15.

We're talking about 6th gen designs here. US needs to show a plane, any type of plane, that has a credible claim of having engines that can perform more than the Chinese equivalent. I agree the number of engines don't matter, them coughing up a design does.

If J-XD spawns with say requiring 3 engines on a 50t frame to power a laser while NGAD spawns requiring 1 engine in a F-35 sized platform to power a similar laser, then US has demonstrated superiority.

If the null hypothesis is that US is superior, then we will start believing in it the moment they show their NGAD (and it is superior to the J-XD in engines). If you take this as your hypothesis, you should have no issue with my above statement, the superior US will deliver a NGAD that does not have the same limitations as J-XD, assuming your, in my opinion very optimistic hypothesis, is true.

I don't see how you can disagree on that point.
 
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