I can understand their reasoning behind issuing crossbows for the CAPF, but compound bows for the PLA? 
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- Thread starter Jeff Head
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Still quieter. Unless you have a very specialized round like the Russian AS VAL rounds or the .300 Blackout subsonic Which are Ridiculously Hollywood "Mouse fart" Quiet, So Quiet the cycling of the bolt and rifle are louder then the rounds.
Blackstone
Brigadier
Well, Mao established the PLA as a peasant army, right?I can understand their reasoning behind issuing crossbows for the CAPF, but compound bows for the PLA?
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plawolf
Lieutenant General
The true silenced rifles tend to also need specialist, subsonic ammo to approach the level of noise of a bow.
The problem is that using those types of ammo also means their lethal range is cut to around 50m, and will also be unlikely to be able to penetrate even soft Kevlar body armour.
A good crossbow or compound bow, with steel penetrator tipped arrows will ripe through soft armour with ease. That gives you a much bigger range of kill boxes you can aim for using a bow compared to a specialist silenced firearm against armoured foes.
A bow is also much more likely to have greater stopping power compared to specialist silenced ammo, although the fire rate isn't going to be comparable.
I would say that both bow and silenced firearms deserve places in special forces units.
You use the bow to take out lone sentries while breaching the perimeter for maximum chances of getting good clean kills, and then switch to silenced firearms once inside, when greater reaction time and fire rates are more likely to be necessary.
Equation
Lieutenant General
Yes but arrows are slender and long therefore more difficult to maneuver with through thick vegetation than bullets.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Accurate. which limits them to Special ops use rather then general issue and would limit there availability to Asymmetric groups..
Conventional rounds fired from a suppressed rifle are going to be louder but can be used at greater ranges. Still the Primary aim of silence boils down to specialized missions and only lasts for a few minutes. Once the first body hits the floor Suppressed or unsuppressed is really a matter of convenience in regards to hearing.
to a degree, but military operators also have hard armor, and Bow even compound generate lower effective velocities vs conventional bullets.
Making a jump here.
The 9x39mm round used by the VAL and VSS Vintorez was designed to counter body armor.
The .300 blackout was developed to offer a very quiet round fired from a MP5 sized package yet packing the power of a 7.62x39mm round.
Always though remember People have survived getting shot all kinds of ways. Heck American President Theodore Roosevelt was shot in the chest, point blank, yet he remained calm nearly unphased. Theodore calmed the crowd down after they captured the would be assassin and were about to become a Lynch mob. Questioned the attacker and then went on to deliver a 90 minute Speech!
Arrow hits have also been survived before. "Stopping power" is a technical term meaning "Hopes of kill". The best way to take a target is to place the rounds in such a place as to destroy critical anatomy Primarily the Brain stem, failing that the only other means would be to try and create enough of a hydrodynamic shock as to rupture multiple critical organs, However Military use of such rounds is restricted and arrows would fare little better.
That I fee would depend more on the resources of the Unit.
[qoute]You use the bow to take out lone sentries while breaching the perimeter for maximum chances of getting good clean kills, and then switch to silenced firearms once inside, when greater reaction time and fire rates are more likely to be necessary.[/QUOTE]
Again the resources of the Unit. Another way if you wanted to play that mission is to have your team set up overwatch snipers who use more conventional weapons to clean up the perimeter before breach.
The Russians for example Use the SV99 a .22LR rifle as the Israelis issue Ruger 10/22 rifles using the low velocity high accuracy very quiet weapon to carefully remove camera's dogs and other perimeter devices before the fight.
Really as I see it a Arrow and Bow would be better options for a guerrilla raiding party then a conventional SF, Arrows being easier to manufacture In Situ vs the bullets.
plawolf
Lieutenant General
For a good specOps team, a few minutes would normally be all they need.
Depending on the size of the target enemy facility, even once discovered silence can be a game changer, as it helps to keep the enemy from being able to effectively locate your unit within their perimeter and concentrate their forces.
Indeed, which is why I stressed their effectiveness against soft armour specifically. Nothing silenced is punching through hard plate until maybe when we are firmly into the age of laser weapons. But by then armour would almost certainly have evolved to meet the new challenges those weapons presents.
Anyways, SpecOp raids often are targeted at rear echelon 'soft' targets far from the front lines, where enemy troops typically would not be wearing hard plate all the time. But even if they are, specialist arrows can still effectively punch through the soft armour areas of a plate carrier, whereas a silenced firearm would normally have no such chance.
That gives you a much greater chance of being able to reliably place a kill shot on a target, and gives you a bigger safety margin against bad luck or chance.
Of course there is never a sure thing in combat, all we can ever do is play the odds and percentages, and that's what the bow and arrow brings to the table - better odds of killing a target with one silenced shot when it matters the most.
Well, as with all tactics, there are pros and cons.
Shooting out cameras as good as serves up advanced notice to your target.
Also, with subsonics, that greatly increases bullet flight time, so exponentially increases the risks of missing as you extend the range. Shooting stationary cameras is one thing, aiming for a sentry patrolling is a different ball game altogether. If those guys are wearing even soft armour, that's going to up the difficulty and chances of a narrow miss more.
Engaging terrorists and militias is a very different thing to taking on a well trained, disciplined and resourced conventional military foe.
All it would take is for someone with a thermal sight to royally screw up your snipers' day no matter how good their fieldcraft, and with modern technological developments and proliferation, that is more and more likely to happen going forwards.
Getting close up and personal is arguably more risky if discovered, but also means you can help lower the chances of being discovered at all, as you are more likely to be able to finish off a wounded enemy before he can raise the alarm, and can also hide bodies as you go along to minimise the chances of someone spotting them and raising the alarm.
Given how light modern bows and a set of arrows can be, I think it would make good sense to make them available to specOp units as it adds another arrow to their quiver (if you will excuse the pun
).
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Just to point this out, but there are a number of thermal insulting camouflage systems now.
Although bows are lighter, they are also bulky and require a standing, kneeling or mounted stance vs a firearm which can be fired prone or even in the modern age from behind cover a position with better suited to concealment
Finally the use we have discussed is a very very specific one conforming to a very very specific mission set.
The only advantage is really its quite vs conventional fire arms and would be cheaper to manufacturer without specialized tooling for bullets. The disadvantages of shorter overall range, bulk of quiver and bow, slow follow on shots, low Velocity vs conventional weapons, presenting stances that require exposure from cover, and a longer training cycle for proper development of muscles and skills. All of which really point to this as intended for some other possible function than actual missions, when asked the advantage vs a conventional rifle the answer will remain its quieter. When asked about missions its very very hard to find a practical role other then a very niche function that can be taken by snipers.
The best answers for why the PLA issues bows I think is one part Equations post, to build upper body muscle and emphasis on marksmanship, and one part apocalypse prepping. In the event of occupation by a enemy power the PLA is keeping to its roots as a Guerilla force, where a a gun is useless without bullets, which requires modern materials and possessing to manufacture ( and no traditional gun powder will not work in a modern weapon). A Bow and Arrow are cave man tech. Able to be manufactured using a variety of materials easily accessible even in the most extreme situation.