PLA Ground Forces news, pics and videos

Blitzo

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Very interesting shot.

The right helmet mounted sight looks a little too slim to be traditional NVG, but then, you can see the front soldier clearly has what looks like another display unit on his left cheek.

Both the right side flip down display and the left cheek display looks like they are both part of the same unit, which is strapped to a headgear worn under the helmet.

I am more than a little intrigued by this unit, specifically how the left cheek unit works (unless its just a glance down display), and also where they are both getting their imaging from?

I think the "left cheek display" is actually part of the actual mount for the NVG, and the "right" flip down sight is actually just a standard NVG, as two eye holes (scopes?) are quite evident in the goggles. the NVG itself probably appears slim because of the small scope itself, which could simply suggest it isn't very powerful (or maybe the scope is removable? who knows)

The mount and attachment of the NVG is likely a variation of this (not the exact same type of NVG), and at the very least explains what the thing on the cheek is:
dBFNqBN.jpg
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think the "left cheek display" is actually part of the actual mount for the NVG, and the "right" flip down sight is actually just a standard NVG, as two eye holes (scopes?) are quite evident in the goggles. the NVG itself probably appears slim because of the small scope itself, which could simply suggest it isn't very powerful (or maybe the scope is removable? who knows)

The mount and attachment of the NVG is likely a variation of this (not the exact same type of NVG), and at the very least explains what the thing on the cheek is:

Plausible suggestion, but it just doesn't look like that.

If the left cheek unit is a strap, where is the rest of it? It clearly doesn't go any further down than the cheek, so that just won't server any purpose being where it is if it was just a strap, and the whole thing would be falling off the man's head if it was a strap and it's just undone.

Everything about the shape, placement and look of it screams eyepiece to me.

The flip down display does indeed look like it has two eyepieces (although most of the others looks like they only have a single eyepiece, maybe its the angles), but its no conventional NVG.

No NVG made with image intensifying tube technology could be that compact.
Detachable tube makes little sense, as it defeats the purpose of a flip-up mount in the first place, and also makes it a very odd choice to have a bespoke, separate head strap for the sights, that then needs the imaging tube removed before they could be flipped up, when they could have just used the standard optics mount built into the very helmet that then would not need the imaging tube to be removed to allow the sight to be flipped up.

That just makes no sense, as you would be going out of your way to make your life more complicated.

Although with the flip-up display having two eyepieces, it does make the cheek display make more sense - it allows the soldier to get vital intel and information at a glance, almost like a fighter pilot HMS (although, ironically, this cheek display looks a great deal more compact and lighter than the newest HMS the Chinese have show off!).

In which case, I would be very interested in knowing how the soldiers is to see the information on the display - does he keep have to glance down at the display, or does he sacrifice a little field of view, so that the display and whatever information it is showing is always within his field of view? Or is it more advanced, and actually projects data directly onto the retina?
 

Blitzo

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Well the cheek strap isn't a strap as such I think, but rather something just to hold it in place, like a stabilizer. Even in the picture I posted, the face mount is not a strap as such.
Either way the thing on the cheek definitely isn't any sort of high tech display; let's be realistic, the army is not well funded enough to start equipping its soldiers during standard exercises with tech like that even if they had developed it.
A cheek stabilising mount definitely isn't the most logical or easiest way to support an NVG, but the chinese army has made some weird decisions before and this wouldn't even be the strangest.

As for the NVG itself... I can clearly spot two eyepieces. The lack of a visible tube could suggest the NVG isn't very powerful, or maybe it is detachable, which are the only most likely options IMO, despite both ideas being a little shaky.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Well, I think Occam's Razor applies. If the suggestion is so implausible you cannot even really convince yourself, it's probably not the correct explanation.

I have never even heard of a "cheek stabiliser", and I honestly cannot see how that could possibly work technically. The only reason I can think of for wanting anything placed at that position is so to mount a display.

Rather than go out of our way thinking what that could be other then a display, the simplest explanation would be that it is a display.

If it was an infantryman mini HUD, and if we rule out next gen stuff like direct retina projection, it probably uses a glass holographic display like fighter HUDs and Google Glass. But unlike Google Glass, I would imagine the glass display to be mounted in a slid out cover rather than being fixed.

This would allow the user to keep it protected when not in use and/or if he is using NVGs or binoculars or other optics.

Such an advanced (and expensive) piece of kit would not be in wide scale deployment, I agree, but it is certainly not so implausible for the PLA to deploy such high tech kit on a small, trial basis, especially to elite units like special forces. That is certainly not without precedent, the ZH05 is pretty high tech, and the PLA is deploying them.

The PLA has also demonstrated numerous future soldier concepts in the past, dating from years ago, so for them to be field testing such systems on very select units now is certainly well within the realm of possibility.

As for the flip up mount, well the very nature of image intensifier tube technology means you cannot make NVGs that thin using IIT irrespective of how powerful the device is.

It could be that they are still using IIT, but have the tube mounted separately from the display, maybe on the right of the helmet, outside of the field of view of that picture.

Alternatives would be that they are either not traditional NVGs, but next generation units using OLED films rather than IIT, or they are thermal imaging goggles.

DARMPA is reporting break throughs using OLED technology that promises to revolutionise the nigh vision market, so its not that far fetched for China to also be developing such technology.

There are a lot of commercially available examples of thermal imaging cameras like the FLIR One or SEEK that are both very compact and also fairly cheap.

It should be possible to build on that technology to develop military spec thermal imaging goggles that are as thin as the ones being shown in that picture with decent range.
 

Blitzo

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Well, I think Occam's Razor applies. If the suggestion is so implausible you cannot even really convince yourself, it's probably not the correct explanation.

I have never even heard of a "cheek stabiliser", and I honestly cannot see how that could possibly work technically. The only reason I can think of for wanting anything placed at that position is so to mount a display.

Rather than go out of our way thinking what that could be other then a display, the simplest explanation would be that it is a display.

If it was an infantryman mini HUD, and if we rule out next gen stuff like direct retina projection, it probably uses a glass holographic display like fighter HUDs and Google Glass. But unlike Google Glass, I would imagine the glass display to be mounted in a slid out cover rather than being fixed.

This would allow the user to keep it protected when not in use and/or if he is using NVGs or binoculars or other optics.

Such an advanced (and expensive) piece of kit would not be in wide scale deployment, I agree, but it is certainly not so implausible for the PLA to deploy such high tech kit on a small, trial basis, especially to elite units like special forces. That is certainly not without precedent, the ZH05 is pretty high tech, and the PLA is deploying them.

The PLA has also demonstrated numerous future soldier concepts in the past, dating from years ago, so for them to be field testing such systems on very select units now is certainly well within the realm of possibility.

As for the flip up mount, well the very nature of image intensifier tube technology means you cannot make NVGs that thin using IIT irrespective of how powerful the device is.

It could be that they are still using IIT, but have the tube mounted separately from the display, maybe on the right of the helmet, outside of the field of view of that picture.

Alternatives would be that they are either not traditional NVGs, but next generation units using OLED films rather than IIT, or they are thermal imaging goggles.

DARMPA is reporting break throughs using OLED technology that promises to revolutionise the nigh vision market, so its not that far fetched for China to also be developing such technology.

There are a lot of commercially available examples of thermal imaging cameras like the FLIR One or SEEK that are both very compact and also fairly cheap.

It should be possible to build on that technology to develop military spec thermal imaging goggles that are as thin as the ones being shown in that picture with decent range.


Plawolf, I actually am applying Occam's razor here -- and that is why I posted the photo of the Chinese soldier with the strange "face mount" NVG configuration, to show that an NVG design involving a face mount does apparently exist in the PLA.
From there, the simplest answer is that the NVG mount we see in the picture we are discussing, is that the "cheek display" is really just a mount/stabilizer design which is a variant of the "face mount" in the picture I posted.
The alternative idea of the cheek stabilizer being a "cheek display" like a mini HUD is frankly the far more unrealistic one, given how advanced such technology would be and that we likely would have seen some degree of such technology in recent years either via leaks or even possibly defense expos. The fact that they have shown recent "future soldier" concepts in recent years and have trialled it and leaked such configurations (including eyepieces integrated with rifles featuring cameras, or ZH-05) means we know what their most recent developments are, and so while it is possible that they could have developed an infantry based HUD without us getting a hint of it prior to actually deploying it in real exercises, it is also a very small possibility.

Therefore, occam's razor tells me that it is far more likely that it's just a poor NVG mount design rather than an advanced high tech infantry HUD.

In fact, a quick google search of "face mount NVG" comes up with this as the first result, a commercial product on the market... I'm not saying the Chinese soldiers in the picture are using the exact same design, but it's likely that it is a variation. For instance, the mount in the photo with Chinese soldiers seems to be slightly more separate from the straps of the helmet, and may even lack a chin strap for the NVG mount, but that would actually be not unsurprising given the Chinese Army seems to be quite a purveyor of stupid design choices for all manner of infantry equipment, and may have accepted such a design without excessively considering the ergonomics of the design. Or maybe the Chinese NVG in the photo cheek stabilizer actually does have a strap for the chin but it slipped away or it is less visible (it isn't a very detailed and close up photo after all) -- all of these are more simple explanations than inferring that the single cheek artefact is suggestive of an infantry HUD.

ZKIVMVG.jpg




Edit: just to emphasize how stupid some of the PLA's design choices have been... this is the same NVG design from before which I posted, but it shows the NVG in its "standby" position... it's absolutely stupid and impractical, and I'm sure I don't need to explain why. Thankfully this particular design doesn't seem to have been in circulated use lately.

Ad5rO7C.jpg
 
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...given the Chinese Army seems to be quite a purveyor of stupid design choices for all manner of infantry equipment...

I would expand that to include all manner of ground forces equipment from machine guns to armored vehicles. I don't know if this is due to lack of funding, lack of competition, corruption, ineptitude, or all of the above but it is disconcerting how many such obviously bad designs actually get manufactured and sometimes fairly widely adopted.
 

Blitzo

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I would expand that to include all manner of ground forces equipment from machine guns to armored vehicles. I don't know if this is due to lack of funding, lack of competition, corruption, ineptitude, or all of the above but it is disconcerting how many such obviously bad designs actually get manufactured and sometimes fairly widely adopted.

I'm not sure how funding between the arms of the Chinese military are determined, but I imagine the Army itself is probably the most poorly funded of them all, and they seem to still retain some very backwards doctrines as well, probably partly due to their poor funding.

fortunately the air force, navy, and 2nd Arty all seem to be on the leading edge of technology or are intending to pursue that leading edge, and are innovative in a number of designs and probably doctrine as well. On balance, it makes sense, but it's still a little disconcerting to see some very mind-numbingly stupid designs or uses of weapons or equipment from the Army...
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Plawolf, I actually am applying Occam's razor here -- and that is why I posted the photo of the Chinese soldier with the strange "face mount" NVG configuration, to show that an NVG design involving a face mount does apparently exist in the PLA.
From there, the simplest answer is that the NVG mount we see in the picture we are discussing, is that the "cheek display" is really just a mount/stabilizer design which is a variant of the "face mount" in the picture I posted.

I can see why you think that, but it just doesn't fit.

Look closely at the pictures you have posted. Those "face brace" pictures you posted doesn't actually touch the face, its a scaffolding frame on which the NVGs are mounted, and the NVGs themselves swivel down, not up.

Its a very old design, which the PLA probably bought before they had helmets which come with NVG mounts attached.

That Norotos design you posted doesn't have cheek braces, rather cheek pads. Those are designed to make it more comfortable for the wearer as much as it is about providing a more secure and stable means to secure NVGs to someone's head.

That is a special forces/civilian market oriented product designed to be worn without a traditional NVG compatible ballistic helmet rather than with them.

In all cases, the brace doesn't secure by clamping onto the face, it secures by traditional chin straps. That picture from the exercise is not that clear, but we can see that whatever the soldiers are wearing, it doesn't extend all the way down to the chin.

The alternative idea of the cheek stabilizer being a "cheek display" like a mini HUD is frankly the far more unrealistic one, given how advanced such technology would be and that we likely would have seen some degree of such technology in recent years either via leaks or even possibly defense expos. The fact that they have shown recent "future soldier" concepts in recent years and have trialled it and leaked such configurations (including eyepieces integrated with rifles featuring cameras, or ZH-05) means we know what their most recent developments are, and so while it is possible that they could have developed an infantry based HUD without us getting a hint of it prior to actually deploying it in real exercises, it is also a very small possibility.

So how do leaks generally start? The PLA doesn't hold a press conference and put on a powerpoint presentation with handouts.

Official leaks typically start with short glimpses allowed in pictures and videos of PLA exercises and/or deployments.

All those examples you gave started off exactly like this - an almost carefully crafted teaser photo (notice how the soldier we can see wearing this is the only one with his helmet positioned oddly. The chin straps are taunt and well secured, so there is little reason his helmet should be push back so much to give us such a clear shot of the item in question) to show you enough to let you know they have something new and interesting, but not enough for you to make a positive determination of what it is.

I would expect more, better quality "leaks" of this to emerge in the months and years ahead.

Therefore, occam's razor tells me that it is far more likely that it's just a poor NVG mount design rather than an advanced high tech infantry HUD.

The craftsmanship evident in the details we can see is clear at odds with the suggestion that this a poorly designed outdated NVG mount.

The overall look and feel of it is very compact and modern looking, far more so then you would expect from a legacy system designed before helmet mounts became standard issue with top tier PLA units. In addition, the whole point of a cheek pad is to spread the pressure as wide as practical, so making it so compact doesn't make sense either. You want you cheek pads wide, not so narrow.

A wide pad also makes it far easier to cover a wide range of cheekbone shapes and sizes. That just doesn't mesh with the design shown.

It is also self-contradictory to insist that the PLA bought a face strap because it doesn't care about ergonomics when the whole point of a design with padded cheek pads would be to improve ergonomics and comfort for the wearer. Just like how its more comfortable to have wide, padded straps on your rucksack.

Moreover, if it is just some variation of a padded head strap for NVGs, we should have seen it already at defence expos and/or on the civilian market.

The only reason you don't actively advertise something is if it wasn't for sale.

Mini infantryman HUDs are advanced, but hardly revolutionary or beyond the technological reach of China.

The PLA is more current with technology then people give them credit for. ZH05, exo-suits, future soldier, just a few examples off the top of my head.

True enough they do not deploy much advanced tech large scale, but they are often more up to date with cutting-edge R&D than people think/expect, partly because they are saving money by not fielding fancy new kit large scale like other armies.

However, the PLA still wants to and needs to field test and evaluate new stuff their techs have developed.

Just because a picture of something showed up in carefully vetted and often actively staged PR shots from an exercise is no indication that that particular piece of kit is standard issue.
 
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Blitzo

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I can see why you think that, but it just doesn't fit.

Look closely at the pictures you have posted. Those "face brace" pictures you posted doesn't actually touch the face, its a scaffolding frame on which the NVGs are mounted, and the NVGs themselves swivel down, not up.

Its a very old design, which the PLA probably bought before they had helmets which come with NVG mounts attached.

That Norotos design you posted doesn't have cheek braces, rather cheek pads. Those are designed to make it more comfortable for the wearer as much as it is about providing a more secure and stable means to secure NVGs to someone's head.

That is a special forces/civilian market oriented product designed to be worn without a traditional NVG compatible ballistic helmet rather than with them.

In all cases, the brace doesn't secure by clamping onto the face, it secures by traditional chin straps. That picture from the exercise is not that clear, but we can see that whatever the soldiers are wearing, it doesn't extend all the way down to the chin.

Those are absolutely true points -- but is it not also very plausible that the NVG mount in the picture we see could be a variation between those designs, or possibly that the chin strap may exist on the actual NVG mount in the photo but slipped out of place, or that the chin strap simply cannot be seen clearly given the distance of the photographer and the conditions of the environment?

I consider these to all be very likely alternatives, that should be ruled out far before considering any other less likely alternatives, including the possibility that it may be some sort of infantry HUD device.


So how do leaks generally start? The PLA doesn't hold a press conference and put on a powerpoint presentation with handouts.

Official leaks typically start with short glimpses allowed in pictures and videos of PLA exercises and/or deployments.

All those examples you gave started off exactly like this - an almost carefully crafted teaser photo (notice how the soldier we can see wearing this is the only one with his helmet positioned oddly. The chin straps are taunt and well secured, so there is little reason his helmet should be push back so much to give us such a clear shot of the item in question) to show you enough to let you know they have something new and interesting, but not enough for you to make a positive determination of what it is.

I would expect more, better quality "leaks" of this to emerge in the months and years ahead.

I am as aware of the nature of how leaks are conducted as you are and I have experience a great number of them as well, but I've also experienced a number of false starts. True leaks (in hindsight) typically have to fulfill certain criteria to seriously be considered as viable, where some of these criteria including the medium in which they are leaked, whether the leaked equipment or hardware has been previously rumoured to have been under development prior to the first indistinct pictures being seen by us, as well as whether the "leak" itself could possibly not be explained by simpler explanations...

In this case, I believe there is a much more simple explanation for what we see, I also believe that we have insufficient prior evidence or rumours of this type of equipment at this stage of advanced development and trials by the Chinese military, and the fact that this equipment is being leaked through official Chinese military picture channels is a little strange as well.

Individually, those three premises may not be too convincing, but if taken together when looking at the photo, I believe there is more than enough doubt to suggest that what we are looking at, based on current evidence, information and logic, is probably not any sort of infantry HUD device and is more likely to be part of the face/cheek mount for the NVG.


The craftsmanship evident in the details we can see is clear at odds with the suggestion that this a poorly designed outdated NVG mount.

The overall look and feel of it is very compact and modern looking, far more so then you would expect from a legacy system designed before helmet mounts became standard issue with top tier PLA units.

It is also self-contradictory to insist that the PLA bought a face strap because it doesn't care about ergonomics when the whole point of a design with padded cheek pads would be to improve ergonomics and comfort for the wearer. Just like how its more comfortable to have wide, padded straps on your rucksack.

I don't want to get into the details of the design too much, but for the Chinese NVG that I posted, the ergonomic deficiencies I list are the fact that when not in use, the goggles are effectively under the soldier's nose and directly in front of their mouth. Trying to conduct normal operations with a piece of equipment right under one's nose isn't the most convenient.

Naturally a far more ergonomic design would have been for the NVG to rotate and tilt upwards out of one's face, like that of most western NVGs or the NVGs in the picture we are discussing from the post on last page.

[EDIT: I realize now that you were talking about the NVG in the original picture we were discussing, not the PLA NVG of the photos that I posted... in which case feel free to ignore some of my points about it]


Moreover, if it is just some variation of a padded head strap for NVGs, we should have seen it already at defence expos and/or on the civilian market.

The only reason you don't actively advertise something is if it wasn't for sale.

Mini infantryman HUDs are advanced, but hardly revolutionary or beyond the technological reach of China.

The PLA is more current with technology then people give them credit for. ZH05, exo-suits, future soldier, just a few examples off the top of my head.

True enough they do not deploy much advanced tech large scale, but they are often more up to date with cutting-edge R&D than people think/expect, partly because they are saving money by not fielding fancy new kit large scale like other armies.

I should clarify, that in my last post I wasn't saying the Chinese Army wasn't trialing new technologies and developing them rigorously -- they are doing quite well in some regards compared to even developed western armies.
What I was saying, is that the Chinese Army also has a history of making some pretty bad design choices for a few widespread pieces of equipment and poor procurement choices overall within the army (although the latter is probably more due to funding).... and the Chinese Army's history of somewhat poor or backwards design choices for certain equipment is one of the reasons why I think we cannot rule out the idea that they could conceivably equip some of their soldiers with equipment that any of us would immediately be confused at (such as NVGs with poor ergonomics).



However, the PLA still wants to and needs to field test and evaluate new stuff their techs have developed.

Just because a picture of something showed up in carefully vetted and often actively staged PR shots from an exercise is no indication that that particular piece of kit is standard issue.

I'm not saying that it is impossible that the thing we see could not be some kind of high tech infantry HUD.
However, I strongly believe that based on the other possibilities of what it could be (a variation design of face/cheek NVG mount, or possibly a more traditional NVG mount with chin straps but the straps had slipped away), as well as the current lack of prior evidence suggesting any sort of infantry HUD in such advanced stages of development (not only in the PLA but also in western military forces), combined with the nature of photograph or "leak" (if it were so), means the most likely conclusion is that it is probably merely a part of the NVG's face and cheek mount.

If we end up with evidence in future suggesting the cheek/face artefact in that picture really is some sort of infantry HUD, then I will immediately be the first to gladly admit it. However at present, the evidence, past patterns of leaks and disclosures, and the overall logic just doesn't seem right for me, especially when compared to the far simpler alternative where the supposed HUD is just part of a face/cheek mount apparatus.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
I think we have both said our peace, and we are just going around in circles now.

You believe it to be one thing, me another, I think its best to just agree to disagree and let time decide who was right. :)
 
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