PLA discussions in Congress

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
They're counting everything that can float on water.

If you're wondering how these people can be elected, it's because they're a reflection of the narcissism of the people who voted them into office. I'm surprised someone hasn't pointed to the parallels of Mao's Cultural Revolution. Intellectuals are a threat and that's the feeling behind this. They don't trust people who maybe smarter than them.
 

no_name

Colonel
They probably count number of ships instead of tonnage.

China has hundreds of old missile boats and dozens of old frigates/destroyers.
 

ABC78

Junior Member
Here's an article written in Jan. 2011 about why they need to make China the enemy.

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The New Rules: Why America Needs to Demonize China
By Thomas P.M. Barnett | 17 Jan 2011
Column
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President Barack Obama came into office promising a new sort of bilateral relationship with China. It was not meant to be. Washington hasn't changed any of its long list of demands regarding China, and Beijing, true to historical form, has gone out of its way to flex its muscles as a rising power. With the recent series of revelations concerning Chinese military developments, the inside-the-Beltway hyping of the Chinese threat has reached fever pitch, matching the average American's growing fears of China's economic strength.

Of course, the world's established No. 1 power always greets the challenge from a rising No. 2 with fear and trepidation. But in the case of the U.S. and China, there are other reasons why so much of Washington is eager to demonize Beijing. Here's my top 10 list:

1. Unable to curb our spendthrift ways, we demand China do it for us. America has an insatiable appetite for illegal drugs, but instead of rationally dealing with the problem of domestic demand, we push it off onto poorer nations to our south via military aid that does nothing but turn their countries into war zones. Our fight with China over its currency's value is similarly framed: Americans cannot stop spending beyond their means, so we demand China raise its currency to reduce our trade imbalance with the entire world. China has 700 million interior rural poor still awaiting economic uplift, but they're no match for our 535 legislators unable to police themselves.

How can Washington sell this nonsense to the American people? Easy. When polled recently, almost half of Americans wrongly identified China as the world's greatest economic power.

2. China would love to balance trade with America, but America prefers maintaining China in its role as a convenient enemy. I spent December in Beijing speaking with Chinese policy experts, all of whom opined that China would gladly balance its trade with the United States -- if only Washington would allow it. Our government restricts sales of high technology to China, so China buys it in bulk from the European Union. Our government won't sell arms to China. As a result, Russia cleans up. Our government also blocks Chinese investment into "sensitive" industries, so Beijing invests elsewhere. Washington hamstrings our bilateral trade to such a degree because it remains convinced that China is our most-likely opponent in any future great-power war. So today's trade is perceived as aid to tomorrow's enemy.

But have no fear: America sells loads of weapons to all of China's neighbors, so we earn back some of those lost sales.

3. Nixon went to China four decades ago, and the Chinese are still Chinese! America had a culture war in the Sixties that amounted to a "long, strange trip." By contrast, China's Cultural Revolution left 30 million dead. After being set on a peaceful path of rapid development under Deng Xiaoping in the early 1980s, the gun-shy Chinese people have most decidedly focused on expanding their economic liberties versus their political rights, continuing to submit to one-party rule. Will this social compact last forever? History says no, but it also says that most such explosively growing countries, especially in Asia, remain de facto single-party states for roughly half a century before a truly competitive multiparty dynamic emerges. That suggests we should expect Chinese democracy to arrive sometime in the 2030s, not tomorrow.

But that's not fast enough for Washington, which puts up with authoritarian allies when it cares to -- and demonizes them when it must.

4. We told Beijing there was only "one China" in 1972, and have sold arms to Taiwan ever since. Think back to the U.S. Civil War. Imagine if Jefferson Davis and the Confederacy's dead-enders had slipped away to Cuba in 1865 to set up their alternative, nose-thumbing version of America on that island. Then fast-forward to, say, 1908, and imagine how much the United States would have tolerated some distant imperial power like England telling us what we could or could not do vis-à-vis this "loser" sitting just off our shore. Imagine where Teddy "San Juan Hill" Roosevelt would have told the Brits they could shove their "Cuban Relations Act of 1879." Well, that's basically what U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates was told last week in Beijing when he proposed expanded military-to-military ties with the PLA.

Oddly enough, when you sell arms to somebody's "breakaway" region, they take it personally.

5. Our nuclear nuttiness knows no bounds. Nuclear weapons have a perfect record of preventing great-power war for 65 years and counting. But now Obama wants them all gone. The rest of the world wonders, Who would benefit most from this? The obvious answer is, The world's sole conventional military superpower with a lengthy record of toppling regimes that it does not like. So guess what? Nukes are here to stay. China subscribes to such realism, and therefore does not follow America's orders on Iran and North Korea.

Naturally, Washington sees only suspicious obstructionism in this stance.

6. The U.S. Navy and Air Force need China to survive. Prior to Sept. 11, military "transformers" inside the Pentagon had their sights set firmly on "rising" China. Then the Long War against violent extremists came along and ruined the high-tech party, pointedly favoring the manpower-intensive Army and Marines. Now, as America tires of nation-building and counterinsurgency, the Revolution in Military Affairs aficionados are back at it, freaking out over every Chinese military development with a triumphant, "I told you so!" The Pentagon's new AirSea Battle Concept -- otherwise known as the Navy-Air Force Full Employment Act -- seeks to right the bureaucratic wrongs triggered by all those ground casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan by putting the platform-heavy "big war" crowd back on top inside the E-Ring. Five-star Army Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, coiner of the phrase "military-industrial complex," must be rolling in his grave.

7. The neocon fantasy of primacy is alive and well and living in Washington. Per last week's column, it's not enough for America to outspend the world on defense. We've also got to dominate China militarily -- right on its doorstep. Gates last week said that spending anything less than his $553 billion proposed 2012 defense budget would be "potentially calamitous." This week, he vowed to match any Chinese military developments. So what's an alternative? The Long War-strapped U.S. military could use some help in its many overseas responsibilities from the free-riding Chinese. And taking up such an expanded global security role would allow the Chinese to address growing vulnerabilities that result from their dependence on foreign sources of energy, minerals and food. But why should either country's military-industrial complex address real-world challenges together when they can spend so much more money mindlessly scheming against one another?

8. The Pentagon's Big War crowd still dreams of nuclear-free great-power war. Check out the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessment's publication, "AirSea Battle: A Point-of-Departure Operational Concept," because it's a real departure from reality. A guiding assumption of the CSBA's war-scenario analysis is that, despite the high likelihood that a Sino-U.S. conventional conflict over Taiwan "would devolve into a prolonged war" in which China would suffer humiliating defeat across the board, mutual nuclear deterrence would be preserved throughout the con¬flict. And what if China took the desperate step of a nuclear launch? According to the CSBA, "the character of the conflict would change so drastically as to render discussion of major conventional warfare irrelevant."

As strategic miscalculations go, that's a doozy.

In direct response, China's military is allegedly reconsidering its longstanding pledge not to pre-emptively strike with nuclear weapons, although China officially denied those reports. For its part, the U.S. Air Force is already developing plans to fire conventional intercontinental ballistic missiles around the world in a program dubbed Prompt Global Strike, with weapons in space soon to follow. And you thought MAD was bad.

9. We live in an age of fear-based politics. You know the drill: Every Chinese military development, no matter how far off in the future its induction, is now routinely touted in the mainstream media as "imminently deployed." If the Chinese military test-flies its new stealth fighter on the eve of Gate's recent visit, then it's proof positive that the PLA now calls all the shots in Beijing. Faith-based politics now begets fantasy-based intelligence analysis. Who cares what's actually operational? Let's just watch an animator's rendering of what's conceivable and run with that.

We should know better. After all, that's what Ronald Reagan's Star Wars snow job with the Russkies amounted to!

10. We prefer the myth of a monolithic, inscrutable China to actual reality. David Shambaugh's Washington Quarterly article (.pdf) describing the plethora of foreign-policy schools now battling each other inside Beijing is on the money: I met representatives from all of those factions last month, and they are one contradictory lot. They run the gamut from advocates of Chinese primacy, as boneheaded as their American counterparts, to some of the nicest Kantian airheads you'd ever care to meet. And trust me, this internal struggle is far from over. The sad thing is that Washington has already made its choice.

We have seen the enemy, and he is us. That's what happens when you use a mirror to look at the world.

Thomas P.M. Barnett is chief analyst at Wikistrat and a contributing editor for Esquire magazine. His latest book is "Great Powers: America and the World After Bush" (2009). His weekly WPR column, The New Rules, appears every Monday. Reach him and his blog at thomaspmbarnett.com.
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
They probably count number of ships instead of tonnage.

China has hundreds of old missile boats and dozens of old frigates/destroyers.

Buddy, even by "count all old rusty floating hulls", America still wins - as if uncle sam don't have old ships?

The old coastal guard's patrol ship can be considered as "nation's most modernized warship" when export to some friend like Philippine - count THAT, America still outweights the rest of the world.
 

Arthur Borges

Just Hatched
Registered Member
A Few Details for Perspective

I think people are looking at China becoming more assertive lately and it has nothing to do with co-dependency.

There are two assumptions behind the opinion that China is "becoming more assertive": (1)China should know its place and (2) US moral, political and economic hypersuperiority is a given that shall not be questioned. Um, about 199 out of about 200 members of the United Nations have no angst about not being top dog -- either we all share or we all go down the tubes together. At all events, the US will continue to outspend the entire rest of the world on arms each year.

The 2011 PLA defence budget is about USD 60 billion, arguably USD 90 billion tops; the US budget is a nominal USD 680 billion (offhand), not counting 75% of the DOE budget that goes into nuclear weapons, veterans' benefits, special appropriations for Iraq, Afghanistan and wherever, plus the black budget that develops thingies like the SR-71. It is no secret there are five to eight SSBNs on station in the Pacific at any given moment, each carrying 48 missiles mirved with up to eight warheads apiece, with two on hard alert 24/7. A Chinese threat? Do you really imagine anyone would sink a US carrier lightly?

Again, the ICBM fleet capable of covering the entire Continental USA consists of 16 to 20 DF-5As, roughly comparable to the US Atlas missiles of the 1960s except that the warhead is 1 megaton. DF-21s and DF-31s are coming online but they are essentially regional weapons, a healthy share of which cover Central and South Asia as well as the South Pacific out to Guam, Hawaii, Alaska, Canada and bits of the USA. See the Federation of American Scientists for details.



The same with the threat to sink an US aircraft carrier if it enters the China Sea and the USA backing off sending the carrier.

How would the US respond to a Chinese CVG inside US territorial waters? By the way a US carrier is doing a port call in Hong Kong right now.




it needs to appreciate that the concerns are genuine: a free-rider on China’s scale is just too great for the global security, economic, political, and environmental order to bear. And unwillingness to assume responsibility may come at a price

Every time the Chinese yuan upvalues by a Chinese penny, it amounts to about USD 2 billion of debt relief to the USA: the USA is living on vendor credit and demanding writedown of the loan. There are US Treasurys out there that China bought at 10.00 yuan per dollar and they will cash in at 6.30. You can see the net loss -- and check out what the interest rate is on Treasurys right now: I'm afraid the free rider is the US Government.

By the way, Dr. Henry Kissinger recently said there was nothing in Chinese history to suggest China will become an aggressive military power.

As for the environmental issue, half of Chinese exports come from the Chinese subsidiaries of multinational corporations who come here precisely because environmental regulations still have huge loopholes or are weakly enforced. When the laws toughen, the multinationals will take their pollutants to the next country on their list.

Political threat? As I see China becoming more open and increasingly concerned about lifting human rights standards, I see the USA restricting them more and more. The fundamental dilemma for Americans is that, on the one hand, there is a mistrust of "big" government but on the other hand, government is the only player with the explicit duty to protect the citizenry. This was recognized by Pres. De Gaulle when he set up the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, an elite university dedicated to training a corps of dedicated civil servants who would stand apart from the private sector, whose primary obligation is it to its shareholders. Finding the right balance is challenge both for China and the USA -- as well as other market economise!

The price may be horrific. I am not sure the USA realizes that China will fight if an adjacent neighbour comes under attack. I suspect they do and will tickle the DPRK or Pakistan a tad too much only when ready for follow-up military action.
 
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Kurt

Junior Member
By the way, Dr. Henry Kissinger recently said there was nothing in Chinese history to suggest China will become an aggressive military power.
I would ask the Thai and Vietnamese what they think of this statement, because their ancestors were ejected from their homelands by the Chinese expansion. Furthermore there's not much Chinese border with countries that weren't involved in an armed clash with China during Mao's reign.
Kissinger is a great diplomat, that doesn't equal always saying plain truth. I think he's right that China likely won't have large territorial dreams like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, but that doesn't mean they won't create a worldwide racket system.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I would ask the Thai and Vietnamese what they think of this statement, because their ancestors were ejected from their homelands by the Chinese expansion. Furthermore there's not much Chinese border with countries that weren't involved in an armed clash with China during Mao's reign.
Kissinger is a great diplomat, that doesn't equal always saying plain truth. I think he's right that China likely won't have large territorial dreams like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, but that doesn't mean they won't create a worldwide racket system.

Kurt

Where did you learn the history of South East Asia? From the the "anti Chinese school of history".

Either that or you are completely ignorant of the relationship between China and South East Asia
There is no ejection or conquest of Thai or Vietnam people. Both of those people originated in South West China and some of them still live there until today known as Zhuang in Guangxi or Dai in Yunnan. Or Yi nationality

You still have the Euro centric conception of settlement by "Conquest, subjugation " of original people.

The settlement of South East China doesn't follow this mode of thinking. When a dynasty fall in China most of the population fled or emigrate to the south. Though there are indigenous people they mixed, intermingle and live side by side peacefully. Over hundred of years these intermingling and eventually intermarry combined with adaption of Chinese culture resulting in an new breed of Chinese.
So most southern Chinese is by race not pure Han if there is no such thing as pure Han. DNA testing proof this concept.

Because Chinese civilization is much higher than the indigenous people. Those people are more than happy to embrace the benefit of higher civilization.

But there are people who refused to get assimilated by the Chinese . There are only 2 option open for them Either they moved to higher ground or they immigrated further south.

The Thai choose both options. Some of them moved to Yunnan province and some of them moved to Thailand along the Mekong river.
Their descendant still live there until today in autonomous region of Dai centered at Xishuangbanna or sip song panna in Thai.

Couple years ago a delegation from Thai parliament went there to erect a monument celebrating the origin of Thai language.
In fact the relation of Thai and China was cemented even closer by King Thaksin who is half blood Chinese and founded the present Chakri dynasty.He invited his fellow villager to come to Thailand and help to liberate Thailand from Burma. So today half of Bangkok are Chinese descendant. The last 8 prime minister of Thailand are of Chinese origin and so do most of upper and lower houses of Parliament. Heck even the last 3 kings are Chinese origin.
 
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Arthur Borges

Just Hatched
Registered Member
I would ask the Thai and Vietnamese what they think of this statement, because their ancestors were ejected from their homelands by the Chinese expansion. Furthermore there's not much Chinese border with countries that weren't involved in an armed clash with China during Mao's reign.
Kissinger is a great diplomat, that doesn't equal always saying plain truth. I think he's right that China likely won't have large territorial dreams like Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, but that doesn't mean they won't create a worldwide racket system.

Oh Kurt, we could go back to five US invasions of Canada and the European invasion of the Americas.

As for a "worldwide racket", start following the ZeroHedge website and tell us what could be worse. Alas, the only attempt at recoupling profit to increase in the production of actual new wealth was Libya's attempt to set up the gold dinar.

But it failed to muster enough support from the US Navy and French Air Force.
 
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