PLA AEW&C, SIGINT, EW and MPA thread

Blitzo

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Hasn't the E-3 been continually upgraded throughout its service life? It might be older, but is it necessarily the most obsolete out of the line-up here?

The E-3 has definitely been continually upgraded through its service life, however the other types have all received upgrades as well (if we are comparing E-2D, KJ-2000, KJ-200 and KJ-500).

I'm not saying E-3 is incompetent by any means, but I do think it isn't a stretch to say that technologically it is the most obsolete of these aircraft mentioned.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

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KJ-200 is also quite modern but also less capable than KJ-500 with the limitation that its primary array only has side coverage (though possibly mitigated by upgrades that give it nose and tail arrays to provide it with technically there 360 degree coverage).
KJ-500 is arguably the most capable of the lot by a margin when taking mission systems and airframe together -- its primary global competitor would be the E-7.

As far as AEW&C capability to fighter ratios go, the PLA is in a pretty decent spot globally, and they are continuing to build KJ-500s and there are signs they are going to be building more KJ-200s as well.
Why would Shaanxi build more KJ-200s when the KJ-500s are already superior to and much more capable than the KJ-200s?

Or do you mean Xi'an's KJ-600? Since KJ-600 can be offered for export to countries who couldn't afford bigger AWACS aircrafts, similarly to the E-2.
 

Blitzo

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Why would Shaanxi build more KJ-200s when the KJ-500s are already superior to the KJ-200 in pretty much every metric?

Or do you mean Xi'an's KJ-600? Since KJ-600 can also be offered for export to countries with no CATOBAR carriers and couldn't afford bigger AWACS aircrafts like the E-2.

Differences in mission systems means KJ-500's cost may be meaningfully greater than KJ-200, which goes beyond merely KJ-500 having three primary arrays providing 360 degree coverage and KJ-200 having two primary arrays. KJ-500's superior capabilities do not come without cost, and an eventual high-lo mix may be seen as desirable.

KJ-600 will contribute to the PLA's overall fleet of AEW&C at large, but similar to E-2 family, it will have some limitations as a carrier based platform.
 

MarKoz81

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Hasn't the E-3 been continually upgraded throughout its service life? It might be older, but is it necessarily the most obsolete out of the line-up here?

The variant currently used by USAF is E-3G (Block 40/45) which is an upgrade. Total of 24 E-3G were modernized in 2014-2020 from 14 E-3B (Block 30) and 10 E-3C (Block 35). Those in turn were 1970/80s design and build. The E-3G is a temporary solution and will be replaced by 26 E-7.

The computers were replaced with new open-architecture environment but E-3G still uses AN/APY-1 (upg. E-3B) or AN/APY-2 (upg. E-3C) radar which consists of a single rotating PESA antenna. The antenna introduces a physical limit on how much information the radar can acquire no matter how modern the rest of the system is.

E-3A.jpg


AN-APY-2_02.jpg

AN-APY-2_01.jpg

E-2D introduced in 2010 uses AN/APY-9 which is a new radar with a single rotating AESA antenna in UHF band for detection of LO/VLO airframes.


KJ-200 is also quite modern but also less capable than KJ-500 with the limitation that its primary array only has side coverage (though possibly mitigated by upgrades that give it nose and tail arrays to provide it with technically there 360 degree coverage).

The difference in coverage between a system with two antennas with side view and three antennas with 360deg coverage is mostly important for naval operations. Air force AEW typically operates alongside ground force deployment which means that it follows a front that separates controlled/own airspace from contested/enemy airspace. That means that a patrolling AWACS flies along a pre-determined path parallel with blind-spots mostly emerging during turns. Naval AEW typically operates in international waters where all airspace is considered contested unless control of waters is established allowing the creation of a maritime "front". I think this is the main reason why KJ-500 has a more expensive three-sided antenna. This allows KJ-500 to be used in both land and maritime domains while KJ-200 will have limitations at sea and will be most suitable for land theaters where flanks can be defended by other sensors/SAMs.

If, as you say, more KJ-200 or another simpler two-sided antenna AWACS are procured they will most likely be intended for operations over land or for protection of own territory.

As far as AEW&C capability to fighter ratios go, the PLA is in a pretty decent spot globally, and they are continuing to build KJ-500s and there are signs they are going to be building more KJ-200s as well.

PLAAF has potentially already achieved better AEW/fighter ratio than USAF.

USN AEW provides up to 75% of total AEW capabilities and while in WestPac theater USN and USAF will operate jointly USN AWACS is fundamental to carrier operations which means that they are limited by carrier deployment. Combined with land-based operations for USAF it will create unavoidable gaps in coverage. That is likely to shift the odds in PLA's favour even further, especially as AWACS production continues.

In the medium term future onwards it's likely they will supplement and augment their manned AEW&C fleet with AEW UAVs, and it's possible a Y-20 based AEW&C could be procured in small numbers eventually a new manned AEW&C possibly based on a domesticated C919 airframe will emerge.

Are there any credible rumours of Y-20 being developed as AEW platform?

USSR developed A-50 from Il-76 because they didn't have any other design capable of carrying the antenna. The equivalent Soviet passenger aircraft was Il-62 which had a narrow body and twin paired engines at the tail as well manual controls. Consequently it couldn't carry a heavy radome. Americans had a stroke of luck with B707 which turned out to be the optimal airliner design that was copied by all later designs like B737 and Airbus A300.

The platform has two specific tasks - it has to fit the crew, equipment and carry the radar and it has to be able to cover a specified distance. Modern radar and computer technology allows medium-sized airframes to perform as well as larger airframes. The ability to carry mass over long distances is another matter so the only scenario where a Y-20 AWACS could be viable are some long-range missions in the Pacific. But those are not practical unless there are sufficient aerial refueling aircraft for whatever is to accompany the AWACS in which case KJ-500 is just as capable as long as it is capable of aerial refueling.

Perhaps Y-20 will be used for a longer-wave AEW system? Size of the antenna is determined by operating wavelength so if PLA wanted to develop low-frequency AEW a heavy airframe like Y-20 could be optimal.

Comparing USAF and USN fleets to the PLA total fleets is difficult because of how different the categories are.
E-3 and KJ-2000 are somewhat traditional large airframe AEW&Cs
KJ-500 and KJ-200 are medium airframe AEW&Cs
E-2 are small airframe AEW&Cs optimized for (and also somewhat limited by) carrier deck operations

AEW essentially are divided into land-based and ship-based which means large and small AWACS. There really isn't a meaningful difference between "traditional large" and "medium" airframe AWACS other than in endurance or capacity to handle tasks due to crew limitations. Land-based AWACS with larger crews can control greater numbers of own aircraft. Carrier-based AWACS must be as small as possible and has therefore very limited capacity and endurance because of small crew. However the purpose of shipborne AEW is to serve as mobile high-altitude radar antenna for the carrier and the task force. They don't have to deal with formations of tens or hundreds of aircraft and they usually don't stay in the air for as long as land-based AWACS do.
 

Blitzo

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Are there any credible rumours of Y-20 being developed as AEW platform?

I personally consider it unlikely and I don't really see a need for it, but it's a non zero chance, which is why I acknowledge it as a possibility.

In the past, whenever discussions over future PLA AEW&C procurement comes up, if a Y-20 AEW&C possibility isn't mentioned, someone will inevitably ask the question and a few posts have to be spent explained why it probably won't happen.


AEW essentially are divided into land-based and ship-based which means large and small AWACS. There really isn't a meaningful difference between "traditional large" and "medium" airframe AWACS other than in endurance or capacity to handle tasks due to crew limitations. Land-based AWACS with larger crews can control greater numbers of own aircraft. Carrier-based AWACS must be as small as possible and has therefore very limited capacity and endurance because of small crew. However the purpose of shipborne AEW is to serve as mobile high-altitude radar antenna for the carrier and the task force. They don't have to deal with formations of tens or hundreds of aircraft and they usually don't stay in the air for as long as land-based AWACS do.

I agree that E-2 (and KJ-600) really should be in their own separate category/domain independent of land based AEW&C, but hey the question I was answering put the totality of USN and USAF AEW&C aircraft together, and E-2s can still be operated from land so they still need to be ignored.

Conveying that comparing the totality of US (i.e.: USAF and USN) AEW&C capabilities versus the totality of PLA (i.e.: PLAAF and PLANAF) AEW&C capabilities can't really be directly compared was the point.


As for land based airframes there's a reason I prefer to divide it between airframe size (for the land based AEW&C) exactly because of endurance and crew size.
Larger land based airframes like 707, Il-76 or 767 based airframes are unquestionably in a different category to a 737 or Y-9 based airframe, which are also a bit different to say an airframe based on Saab 2000. Their respective sizes will determine the size of the antennae they can carry, the amount of onboard computing they have, the consoles and crew they can have, the amount of rest facilities, etc.

I call the larger airframe AEW&Cs "traditional" because it most major air forces are trending towards the "medium" sized airframes for a variety of reasons which I wont' explore here.
 

BoraTas

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I personally consider it unlikely and I don't really see a need for it, but it's a non zero chance, which is why I acknowledge it as a possibility.

In the past, whenever discussions over future PLA AEW&C procurement comes up, if a Y-20 AEW&C possibility isn't mentioned, someone will inevitably ask the question and a few posts have to be spent explained why it probably won't happen.




I agree that E-2 (and KJ-600) really should be in their own separate category/domain independent of land based AEW&C, but hey the question I was answering put the totality of USN and USAF AEW&C aircraft together, and E-2s can still be operated from land so they still need to be ignored.

Conveying that comparing the totality of US (i.e.: USAF and USN) AEW&C capabilities versus the totality of PLA (i.e.: PLAAF and PLANAF) AEW&C capabilities can't really be directly compared was the point.


As for land based airframes there's a reason I prefer to divide it between airframe size (for the land based AEW&C) exactly because of endurance and crew size.
Larger land based airframes like 707, Il-76 or 767 based airframes are unquestionably in a different category to a 737 or Y-9 based airframe, which are also a bit different to say an airframe based on Saab 2000. Their respective sizes will determine the size of the antennae they can carry, the amount of onboard computing they have, the consoles and crew they can have, the amount of rest facilities, etc.

I call the larger airframe AEW&Cs "traditional" because it most major air forces are trending towards the "medium" sized airframes for a variety of reasons which I wont' explore here.
Do you see a possibility of a Chinese E-8 equivalent? Considering how multi-role modern radars on AEW&C and fighter aircraft are, such an aircraft sounds like a luxury to me.
 

Blitzo

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Do you see a possibility of a Chinese E-8 equivalent? Considering how multi-role modern radars on AEW&C and fighter aircraft are, such an aircraft sounds like a luxury to me.

I somewhat think the Tu-154Ms they have probably fill that role at present, and some Y-8/9 special mission aircraft may as well.

Many aircraft radars can do the SAR/GMTI role to a degree, and UAVs are taking a big chunk of that mission as well and will continue to do so in future.


Though I personally think having a moderate sized fleet of such aircraft in a narrow body airliner airframe or a business jet airframe would be pretty sensible given the benefits of being able to mount a larger side looking array, and the onboard crew able to monitor and analyze and carry out battle management organically, even if such an aircraft wouldn't be survivable in high intensity environments.

But understandably such an aircraft isn't a high PLA priority and it's not like they have a fully domestic narrow body airliner or business jet airframe to convert either.
 
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