Pentagon accuses Chinese vessels of harassing U.S. ship

bigstick61

Junior Member
You've just summed up the issue with the US and it's foreign relations. On one hand, you expect China to obey UNCLOS rules with a country that actively chose not to be a part of (not ratifying). Then, when there is a rule in the UNCLOS that negatively affects the US, you call it bunk and say since the US did not sign it, they don't need to obey it. Article 88 has simply identified the US as the aggressor with their non-peaceful activity. If you deem it unrealistic, it's just the same to deem expecting a non-UNCLOS participant to be given UNCLOS treatment as unrealistic too.

It is not unrealistic in the least. China signed UNCLOS and is bound by its provisions. The U.S. by its own laws recognizes claims made under UNCLOS, but it does not voluntarily abide by the other parts of UNCLOS which extend beyond claims made by nations, and it is not legally bound to them, because it is not a signatory/ratifier. Nonetheless, it still legally enjoys all of the benefits/rights in EEZs of other nations, because all nations are granted them in UNCLOS, not just those which have ratified the treaty. That's just how the law works. China signed UNCLOS and it is bound to obey it, even when it comes to dealing with non-ratifying nations.

If China wanted to make claims beyond what UNCLOS allows, it should have never ratified UNCLOS. By doing so, they have put legal constraints upon their actions. Simply put, the U.S. made the smart choice and the Chinese the wrong one when it came to UNCLOS. The U.S. is strong enough where it can make the claims UNCLOS allows, and probably a bit more, without having to be a party to the treaty, and can still enjoy all of the benefits of the treaty, without ratifying it.

Whether it was strong enough when it signed the treaty, it is strong enough now for it (China) to not be a party and still enjoy the benefits, while still being able to make at least some claims beyond what UNCLOS allows. This would require withdrawing from the treaty, but I doubt the Chinese will. I think this incident demonstrates how not being a party to UNCLOS is in the best interests of the Chinese. But nonetheless, for now it is a party to the treaty, and is bound to obey it, regardless of whether it likes it or not. This fact destroys the premise of the argument the Chinese are making, and because of this, such facts render the entire Chinese argument fallacious.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Navigational hazards are hazards can cause the ship to take on water and sink. Claiming that a few kg of rubbish would be hazardeous against a 5368000kg ship is really beginning to insult others' intelligence.


If it isn't properly marked with bouyies, it can be considered as a navigational hazard for the smaller boats.


Ramming would definately be an illegal thing to do, as it would endanger the crew, but there's nothing in the laws that prevent contacts from taking place.


The items dumped into the water are more symbolic of navigational hazards than they are ones in actuality. However, dropping wood into the water is not the only action the Chinese vessels took. The ships themselves manoeuvered in such a fashion as to pose a danger to the Impeccable and its crew, hence why in one instance the ship's hoses were used. The Chinese created conditions which made a collision highly possible.

Also, the sonobuoy is not a navigational hazard, and such devices, especially on the open ocean, are not considered to be hazards by numerous nations, to include China (or else it wouldn't be able to use them itself). Sonobuoys remain close enough to the ship that for a ship to be in danger from it (if it could be placed in danger by it) would mean that the ship manoeuvered way too close to the Impeccable and thus was posing a danger itself. You just don't manoeuver that close to other ships on the open ocean.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Having failed to agree which laws are relevant, lets look at the situation through moral and human relationship point of view:

Sam and Qin are living in two separate house in the same community. They do regular business together and have expressed great interest to be real friends.

One day, Sam, being suspicious of Qin's rescent construction activity on Qin's backyard, decided to temporarily install state of the art monitoring equipment in the community sidewalk that allows him to monitor Qin's every movement such as going to the bathroom or even having sex. Knowing this, Qin storm out of the house and demand explanation on Sam's action. Sam said: "why are you harrassing me, I am only watching the birds in your beautiful backyard. I am not violating anylaw."

Now, if you are Qin, do you think that Sam truly want to be friends with you? Would you suspect alterior motives?

In China, many dealings business or personal are conducted without real contracts. Chinese would rather rely on trust. with trust any conflict can be solved, but without trust anything, even under a strong contract, can go wrong. You may agree or disagree with this dealing systems but it is a fact and custom in China.

Puting international law aside, if US truly wants to enhance relationship with China, then the US should not deliberately have malicious intent towards China. Its mutual respect and fair. The US actions, even if it does not violate any law, is disrespectful. Of course on the other hand, China have also violate mutual trust by spying or stealing US tech. Both countries are guilty of untrustworthy actions before, but in this case, its the US that ought to be blamed more.

So this incident can be legal (depending on which law you abide to), but it is definitely not morally right and damaging to relationship.

You cannot equate interpersonal relations to international relations in the least. The two are way too different for such an analogy to actually be able to apply. Its idealistic to believe otherwise.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Sending the destroyer to further agrevate the situation also implicitly justify the double digit spending growth of the PLA and all other major developing nations. Very bad role model and disturbing message which may lead to further instability in the region if this continues.

Knowing secret chinese naval base and submarines does not directly benefit american citizen especially during recession, but having a good relationship and mutual trust with china and the rest of the world will definitely benefit american citizen as well as the world. Showing restraint and respect is the best action america can do if it wants to be a leader and a good role model.

The right and better path lies ahead, but arrogance and paranoia blocks the way.


The destroyer is necessary to ensure the safety of the Impeccable. It would have been stupid for the U.S. not to send a warship to serve as an escort.

Also, the knowledge gained is useful to the U.S. China is seen as a potential enemy, with there being chances for future conflict. The U.s. ants to be in the best position possible, and thee actions go towards that. The U.S. does have major interests in Asia and also has territory and bases in Asia.

No country can afford to be idealistic in its foreign policy, or utopian, as much as countries do sometimes (to include the U.S. at times, to its detriment most of the time, IMO).
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Tempting the Dragon
by Mark Valencia
Posted March 11, 2009

The “harassment” of the U.S. Navy military survey vessel Impeccable operating in China’s Exclusive Economic Zone in the South China Sea is but the tip of an iceberg of maritime legal differences between China and the U.S. Indeed this is not the first such incident, and unless a compromise can be negotiated it certainly won’t be the last.

According to the 1982 United Nations Convention Law of the Sea, marine scientific research in a foreign EEZ can only be undertaken with the consent of the coastal state. This is because such research and activities may have direct bearing on the exploration, exploitation, conservation or management of the coastal state’s living and non-living resources. The research must also be for peaceful purposes only. China has ratified the Convention. The U.S. has not, although it maintains that most of it is binding customary law.

China maintains that what the U.S. is doing comes under the marine scientific provisions of the Convention and that it did not give the required consent to the U.S. However, the U.S. distinguishes between marine scientific research which requires consent and hydrographic and military surveys which are mentioned separately in the Convention. The U.S. maintains that the latter do not require consent and that they are an exercise of the freedom of navigation and “other internationally lawful uses of the sea” protected by the Convention.

Critics of this position point out that collection of data even expressly for military purposes may also unintentionally or otherwise shed light on resources in the area. They also argue that a country that has not ratified the Convention does not have much credibility interpreting it to its advantage.

The mission of the Impeccable is to use both passive and active low frequency sonar arrays to enable detection and tracking of undersea threats. China argues that the collection of such data is a “preparation of the battle field” and thus a threat of use of force--a violation of the U.N. Charter and certainly not a peaceful use of the ocean as required by the Convention. The U.S. argues that its data gathering is purely defensive and certainly not a threat of use of force.

Regarding the confrontation, China would say that its vessels were not harassing the Impeccable but simply trying to make it cease violating what China says is both international law and its law and leave the area. The U.S. argues that according to the Convention, China must pay ‘due regard’ to its navigational and operational rights and that ‘harassing’ its vessel--particularly a naval vessel which has sovereign immunity--is a violation of the due regard principle.

The distinction between different categories of surveying and marine scientific research hinges on more than the intent and the purpose of collecting the data. The potential economic value and utility of the data to the coastal state should also be considered, and it is difficult to argue that hydrographic or military data collected today will not have some value in the future. A possible criterion for consent might recognize both the intent of the activity and the relevance to resources of the data collected.

Regardless, the real issue of course is China’s expanding blue water navy and its major submarine base on Hainan. Obviously it wants to protect its “secrets” in the area including the activities and capabilities of its submarines and the morphology of the sea bottom. And just as intently, the U.S. wants to know as much as it can about China’s submarine capabilities and the area it may one day need to do battle in. Thus such incidents are likely to be repeated and become more dangerous and they do not pertain to China and the U.S. alone.

To respond to the bolded and underlined parts:

What the U.S. was doing was not research, and certainly nothing that had anything to do with the environment or natural resources. Second of all, by the U.S. not being a ratifier, it does not have to obey every provision of UNCLOS, which is not the case for a ratifying country.

As for the second statement, it is kind of rediculous, because almost anything in theory could have some sort of unintentional minor impact on something related to what UNCLOS actually covers when it comes to EEZs. Second of all, whether or not the nation ratified the tereaty has no bearing on how right they are in interpreting its provisions. Again, another rediculus argument, and a logical fallacy at that.

The Chinese are only stating this because they believe that the harassment was lawful, and thus technically not harassment. However, the law is not on their side in this case.
 

flyzies

Junior Member
Peak-ah-BOO! Guess who's watching?!

GuesswhoswatchingUSNSImpeccable.jpg
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
.......If the Chinese did that they would have been perfectly within their rights and not have violated UNCLOS by posing danger to the Impeccable. Though of course China could still end violating article 88, as in the case now.

Dropping wood in front of the boat is posing danger but locking on is not ? :rofl:
And what next after locking on ?
Keep going, your 'reasoning' just gets better & better.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I wonder if the confrontation is still going on?

With the US escalating with a full warship, I think this would be an ideal situation for China to continue the disruption with a team of half a dozen of its Type 22's. With a couple performing active maneovers and the others standing off resting and giving cover, they could perform shifts around the clock and wear the other side down.

A depth charge or two over the towed sonar could play havoc as well ;)
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Peak-ah-BOO! Guess who's watching?!

[qimg]http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l163/flyzies/military/GuesswhoswatchingUSNSImpeccable.jpg[/qimg]
Nothing wrong with watching in the least.

In its own way, the Impeccable is also watching.

...and now the Chung-hoon too.

If all sides are careful and observant, my guess is that they will all get valuable pictures and information about the things that they are observing.

005.jpg


004.jpg
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I wonder if the confrontation is still going on?

With the US escalating with a full warship, I think this would be an ideal situation for China to continue the disruption with a team of half a dozen of its Type 22's. With a couple performing active maneovers and the others standing off resting and giving cover, they could perform shifts around the clock and wear the other side down.

A depth charge or two over the towed sonar could play havoc as well ;)
I doubt that there will be any futher military escalation.

A depth chage over the towed array would be, IMHO, a wreckless escalation to violence that has not occurred by either side to date and would result in much more serious consequences all around.

I pray that cooler heads prevail.

The PRC has shown that it is capable of using non-violent means to attempt to degrade the information that the Impeccable is gathering short of physical violence.

The US DDG is there to specifically prevent any escalation to violence against the Impeccable which is as an unarmed vessel and incapable of such escalation.

The incident wth the five smaller vessels is not the first in this regard. The more serious incident, IMHO, occurred a few days earlier when a PLAN FFG (an armed combatant) abruptly cut across the bow of the Impeccable at a range of 100 yards presenting a serious potential for collission.

As I said, at this point, hopefully cooler heads will prevail and the incident will fade as the Impeccable goes about its way and in a few days departs the area.
 
Top