Pentagon accuses Chinese vessels of harassing U.S. ship

bigstick61

Junior Member
Since UNCLOS does not specifically define the legality of military surveillance operations within the EEZ, it is equally within Chinese jurisdiction as the UNCLOS did not specifically remove jurisdiction from the coastal state. Article 56 1c does afford other rights to the coastal state.

And if we look at the US insistence of international waters, Article 88 stipulates the high seas as being reserved for peaceful purposes. Military intelligence is nowhere near peaceful.

At the end of the day, it's still hypocritical to quote UNCLOS when the US does not wish to be a participant. That stands above all else.

It's not really hypocritical, since by signing LOST, China is bound by it, regardless of what nation it is dealing with, and it is thus the law they must abide by. The U.S. does not have to ratify it for this to be the case, and it is not in U.S. interests to ratify it due to the part about the International Seabed Authority and the imposition of higher courts over our courts on maritime matters (which may actually violate our Constitution).

The part about international waters being peaceful is kind of bunk, since it is wholly unrealistic, given the nature of the world, but it is the law the Chinese and other ratifiers have to follow. The U.S., by not ratifying, does not have to obey that provision.

Either way, China is not given jurisdiction over much in the EEZs. One of those things it has no jurisdiction over are military surveillance operations by foreign nations. They're not called EEZs for no reason. The areas of jursidiction are primarily economic, which has absolutely nothing to do with the U.S. ship, and the Chinese are not contending that the Impeccable was violating fisheries laws or anything of that nature which LOST gives China jurisdiction over. They are contending that the LOST gives them jurisdiction over more things than it actually does (military operations of foreign nations) and that the U.S. is therefore subject to laws in this area, and that the U.S. was in violation of such laws. Since LOST does not give them jurisdiction here, their entire argument falls flat on its face.
 

alopes

Junior Member
This is my opinon: An Exclusive Economic Zone is by definition ECONOMIC, therefore if the USNS Impeccable was fishing or exploring for oil resources, then that would be illegal because it was inside China's EEZ and those are economic activities. However it was not doing anything remotely related to economic activities, therefore being inside the EEZ is a totally moot point.


Yes, but pratically speaking, China could use their fishery ships to stop USA ships from spyng their military bases.

Which is a justifiable procedure from China, in my view, since the spyng indicates that there is a military threat close to their bases.
 
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Engineer

Major
This is my opinon: An Exclusive Economic Zone is by definition ECONOMIC, therefore if the USNS Impeccable was fishing or exploring for oil resources, then that would be illegal because it was inside China's EEZ and those are economic activities. However it was not doing anything remotely related to economic activities, therefore being inside the EEZ is a totally moot point.
Being in EEZ means China has the jurisdiction and I think that's the reason why some are trying to make it a moot point.

Being in EEZ means China can't arrest the crew and impound the ship, for example, if the ship hasn't violated any relevant law. But China can still exercise its rights to regulate the ship, like stop it for inspection, for example.
 

bigstick61

Junior Member
Yes, but pratically speaking, China could use their fishery ships to stop USA ships from spyng their military bases.

Which is a justifiable procedure from China, in my view, since the spyng indicates that there is a military threat close to their bases.

They are still limited in what they can legally do, and their rights do not extend to creating navigational hazards, puting objects in the path of ships, or trying to damage, destroy, or capture one of the ship's components, the towed sonar array. Anything short of actually physically impacting the ship in soem manner or endangering it or its crew is perfectly legitimate.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
You gents are doing a great job of being civil in this thread. I congratulate you all. Keep up the great civil posting!!

bd popeye super moderator
 

joshuatree

Captain
The part about international waters being peaceful is kind of bunk, since it is wholly unrealistic, given the nature of the world, but it is the law the Chinese and other ratifiers have to follow. The U.S., by not ratifying, does not have to obey that provision.

You've just summed up the issue with the US and it's foreign relations. On one hand, you expect China to obey UNCLOS rules with a country that actively chose not to be a part of (not ratifying). Then, when there is a rule in the UNCLOS that negatively affects the US, you call it bunk and say since the US did not sign it, they don't need to obey it. Article 88 has simply identified the US as the aggressor with their non-peaceful activity. If you deem it unrealistic, it's just the same to deem expecting a non-UNCLOS participant to be given UNCLOS treatment as unrealistic too.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Lets be honest, this is not a matter of right or wrong, becasue there is no absolute codex that both sides recognise and adhere to. What we have instead are two makor powers both promoting their own interpretations. The side that prevails is the one with the will and means to enforce it.

So is China prepared to back down in its own Front Yard and if not, how far will America persue the issue?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
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Tempting the Dragon
by Mark Valencia
Posted March 11, 2009

The “harassment” of the U.S. Navy military survey vessel Impeccable operating in China’s Exclusive Economic Zone in the South China Sea is but the tip of an iceberg of maritime legal differences between China and the U.S. Indeed this is not the first such incident, and unless a compromise can be negotiated it certainly won’t be the last.

According to the 1982 United Nations Convention Law of the Sea, marine scientific research in a foreign EEZ can only be undertaken with the consent of the coastal state. This is because such research and activities may have direct bearing on the exploration, exploitation, conservation or management of the coastal state’s living and non-living resources. The research must also be for peaceful purposes only. China has ratified the Convention. The U.S. has not, although it maintains that most of it is binding customary law.

China maintains that what the U.S. is doing comes under the marine scientific provisions of the Convention and that it did not give the required consent to the U.S. However, the U.S. distinguishes between marine scientific research which requires consent and hydrographic and military surveys which are mentioned separately in the Convention. The U.S. maintains that the latter do not require consent and that they are an exercise of the freedom of navigation and “other internationally lawful uses of the sea” protected by the Convention.

Critics of this position point out that collection of data even expressly for military purposes may also unintentionally or otherwise shed light on resources in the area. They also argue that a country that has not ratified the Convention does not have much credibility interpreting it to its advantage.

The mission of the Impeccable is to use both passive and active low frequency sonar arrays to enable detection and tracking of undersea threats. China argues that the collection of such data is a “preparation of the battle field” and thus a threat of use of force--a violation of the U.N. Charter and certainly not a peaceful use of the ocean as required by the Convention. The U.S. argues that its data gathering is purely defensive and certainly not a threat of use of force.

Regarding the confrontation, China would say that its vessels were not harassing the Impeccable but simply trying to make it cease violating what China says is both international law and its law and leave the area. The U.S. argues that according to the Convention, China must pay ‘due regard’ to its navigational and operational rights and that ‘harassing’ its vessel--particularly a naval vessel which has sovereign immunity--is a violation of the due regard principle.

The distinction between different categories of surveying and marine scientific research hinges on more than the intent and the purpose of collecting the data. The potential economic value and utility of the data to the coastal state should also be considered, and it is difficult to argue that hydrographic or military data collected today will not have some value in the future. A possible criterion for consent might recognize both the intent of the activity and the relevance to resources of the data collected.

Regardless, the real issue of course is China’s expanding blue water navy and its major submarine base on Hainan. Obviously it wants to protect its “secrets” in the area including the activities and capabilities of its submarines and the morphology of the sea bottom. And just as intently, the U.S. wants to know as much as it can about China’s submarine capabilities and the area it may one day need to do battle in. Thus such incidents are likely to be repeated and become more dangerous and they do not pertain to China and the U.S. alone.
 

astrotrain

Just Hatched
Registered Member
The banker gives out money to the borrower so the borrower can use said funds whether directly or indirectly to spy on and contain the banker actions now or to the forseable future.

hmm,
 

Engineer

Major
their rights do not extend to creating navigational hazards, puting objects in the path of ships
Navigational hazards are hazards can cause the ship to take on water and sink. Claiming that a few kg of rubbish would be hazardeous against a 5368000kg ship is really beginning to insult others' intelligence.

or trying to damage, destroy, or capture one of the ship's components, the towed sonar array.
If it isn't properly marked with bouyies, it can be considered as a navigational hazard for the smaller boats.

Anything short of actually physically impacting the ship in soem manner or endangering it or its crew is perfectly legitimate.
Ramming would definately be an illegal thing to do, as it would endanger the crew, but there's nothing in the laws that prevent contacts from taking place.
 
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