Oversized Frigates

IDonT · Nov 24, 2006

Frigates that should be classified as destroyers based on their capabilities and displacement.

Alvaro de Basan Class (Spain)
Displacement: 6,250 tons (full load)

Sachen Class Frigates (Germany)
Tonnage: 5,690 tons

Talwar Class (India)
Displacement 4035 tons - full load

Horizon Frigate
Displacement: 6635 (Full Load)

tphuang · Nov 24, 2006

I don't mind Talwar as much, but F-124 and the Spanish Aegis ship definitely should not be called Frigates. You can add the Horizon class in there too.

Scratch · Nov 24, 2006

I have a question here regarding the classification of ships, I found different answers on the net on that.
This is somewhat difficult, but I remember a formula like "a frigate is the 'biggest' vessel that can not operate alone" because it can't incorporate all capabilities needed (AAW, ASW, surface combat).
And then I remember to have heared that just the other way round, the smallest ship that can operate alone. What is true ? Make even any of these statements sense ??

Gollevainen · Nov 24, 2006

Classification of warships is pretty much different in every country. Remember that there is no general all-applying military jargon or language which all could rely. Most navies classifies their ships under their own names with their own languages.

So is there a oversized frigates? Well Frigate means three mast sailing ship so the whole word is just reused for descriping a shiptype which has existed only about 50 years. The orginal "modern time" frigates where hardly over 1000 tons displacement so against that almoust every ship that is nowadays called frigate is oversized. As the times changes, so does the definitions and the task and requirements of warships. The definiton of frigate isen't written in some stone lying around some god's feets, it's just a word to descripe warships. Often it's given to a ship over politcal reasons. Frigates are tought to be smaller than destroyers and small means less money, and less money means better chance to get politicans approve the design.

So it really isen't a big deal wheter someone calls some ship frigate while other calls similar size ship destroyer...if it conforms you, russians call them something completely different

IDonT · Nov 24, 2006

Gollevainen said:
Classification of warships is pretty much different in every country. Remember that there is no general all-applying military jargon or language which all could rely. Most navies classifies their ships under their own names with their own languages.

So is there a oversized frigates? Well Frigate means three mast sailing ship so the whole word is just reused for descriping a shiptype which has existed only about 50 years. The orginal "modern time" frigates where hardly over 1000 tons displacement so against that almoust every ship that is nowadays called frigate is oversized. As the times changes, so does the definitions and the task and requirements of warships. The definiton of frigate isen't written in some stone lying around some god's feets, it's just a word to descripe warships. Often it's given to a ship over politcal reasons. Frigates are tought to be smaller than destroyers and small means less money, and less money means better chance to get politicans approve the design.

So it really isen't a big deal wheter someone calls some ship frigate while other calls similar size ship destroyer...if it conforms you, russians call them something completely different

I know for sure that the German's are calling the Sachen a frigate because "it does not sound aggressive" as destroyer.

adeptitus · Nov 24, 2006

The general trend is to "up size" over time.

If I were to re-classify ships by tonnage today, I'd go with something like this:

Rough estimates:
=======================
Patrol boat: ~500 tonnes
Corvette: under 1,500 tonnes
Light Frigate: 1,500 - 2,500 tonnes
Frigate: 2,500 - 6,000 tonnes
Destroyer: 6,000 - 10,000 tonnes
Cruiser: 10,000 - 20,000 tonnes
Heavy Cruiser: 20,000-40,000 tonnes

These are just rough estimates, we have ships that are pushing right up to the border region today, i.e. 6,000 ton frigates. The next generation will prolly look something like, Corvettes up to 3,000 tons, Frigates up to 8,000 tones, and Destroyers up to 12,000 tones.

I'd also re-classify PLAN ships like this:
==============================
Jianghu & Jiangwei class = Light Frigate
Luda, Luhu, & Ma'anshan class = Frigate
Luhai, Luyang, & Lunzhou class = Destroyer

The Luda would be "Guide Missile Frigate", while the 054 would be "General Purpose Frigate".

IDonT · Nov 24, 2006

The navies should just change the name to a more generic "surface combatant". The USN is already classifying the Corvette sized USS freedom as Littoral Combatant.

Gollevainen · Nov 25, 2006

yeas, too much sail-boat romantics, as one of our former admirall would have put it. The ship designation system currently used is one of the downfalls that too big ego and too 'all-or-nothing' commitment to naval heritage can couse, expecially in the west. The soviet system was far more realistic and clear of what came to the naval designations, thougth used as pararell to the western system, it couses misinteruptions and also points out the oddity in the frigate, corvette and even destroyer naming...

Obi Wan Russell · Nov 25, 2006

The RN classifies Air defence surface combattants as destroyers and ASW oriented surface combatants as frigates, size being dropped as a defining characteristic some time ago as the type 22 frigates are larger than the type 42 destroyers. Ships which qualify as destroyers are often 'downgraded' to frigates in order to gain treasury approval as frigates are assumed by uninformed politicians to be less expensive. In the 1960s the County class DLGs were classified as destroyers to gain treasury approval even thought they were nearly three times the displacement of most destroyers then in service, and were in reality light command cruisers, and were operated as such for most of their careers.

IDonT · Nov 29, 2006

New Update

FREMM Multipurpose Frigates for France and Italy
Displacement 5800 tons

Oversized Frigates

IDonT

Senior Member

tphuang

Lieutenant General

Scratch

Captain

Gollevainen

Colonel

IDonT

Senior Member

adeptitus

Captain

IDonT

Senior Member

Gollevainen

Colonel

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master

IDonT

Senior Member