opium war, some question...
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I don't think it is fair to say that Qing did not mobilize. We have to remember that China was not a country but an empire. i.e. revolts and border wars are generally dealt with the local province raising troops. The concept of Westphalian sovereignty is forced upon China by the 8 nation alliance.
You have to remember that China had continuously been attacked by "barbarians" through out the ages; some times they sacked a few cities, other times they were beaten back. But the most important thing is, these invasions were rarely permanent and were treated as flesh wounds; not wounds to the soul of the country.
That idea and thought runs through the Han, Tang, Sung and right down to the Nationalist whom treated the Japanese invasion as a flesh wound to the country, while the CCP civil war is the mortal one.
ABC78
Junior Member
I think the Chang Kai Shek quote was "The Japanese are a disease of the skin but the Communist are a disease of the heart."
solarz
Brigadier
The obvious answer is that the Qing Emperor felt that it was cheaper to sue for peace than to mobilize for a full out war with the British.
The question then is, why did he feel that way?
The strength of the Bannermen armies were based on nomandic horsemen from Manchuria and Mongolia, while Chinese were of a lower class of soldier, mobilizing a large army and navy would mean arming and training the Chinese, who wouldn't find much justice or fairness in being led by officers and kings who hold that position above them based off race rather than merit.
That's the beginning of an armed revolution.
That's the beginning of an armed revolution.
bluewater2012
Junior Member
And let not forgot the Manchu is an ethnic minority in China and the last that they want is an disrupt to their rule in China, hence they'd rather surrender to the British demands than risk full scale war and the possibility of being toppled over. There were fraction in court officials that wanted full scale war versus those who wanted to sue for peace for the reason above. But as history tells you, easily giving into demands of others/invaders won't stop from there and asking for an repeating (aka second opium war).
And how would one raise a huge army, before the advent of industrialization?
The Qin dynasty only did it by making the entire population highly regimented.
basically the entire male population was either serving in the seasonal army or be part of the logsitical train. and even then the campaign did not last multi season.
and that was the height of chinese pre-industrial military state. nothing matched those efforts after wards.
To do that in the mid 1800s in china. if tou are an official sent to "raise an army" the best you can do is tell the locals to raise some militias and extract some finances from local rich dudes (hey I am not going to tax you extra this year, wink wink but you need to contribute some silver to raise an army) the central government would not be able to send help even if they wanted.
weapons, food, pay. all these has to be raised locally.
thats basically how the "Huai" Army of Zeng Guo Pan got started.
pre-industrialization guys. pre-industrialization.
do you think those local raised army would stand a chance against a professional army using percussion rifles and rifled cannons firing explosive shells? it would be a slaughter.
The Qin dynasty only did it by making the entire population highly regimented.
basically the entire male population was either serving in the seasonal army or be part of the logsitical train. and even then the campaign did not last multi season.
and that was the height of chinese pre-industrial military state. nothing matched those efforts after wards.
To do that in the mid 1800s in china. if tou are an official sent to "raise an army" the best you can do is tell the locals to raise some militias and extract some finances from local rich dudes (hey I am not going to tax you extra this year, wink wink but you need to contribute some silver to raise an army) the central government would not be able to send help even if they wanted.
weapons, food, pay. all these has to be raised locally.
thats basically how the "Huai" Army of Zeng Guo Pan got started.
pre-industrialization guys. pre-industrialization.
do you think those local raised army would stand a chance against a professional army using percussion rifles and rifled cannons firing explosive shells? it would be a slaughter.
hogwash.
the han green battalions were the backbone of the army anyways and the only effective non-ethnic han army were the Mongol Cavalry who got slaughtered by the british. if the reason for not arming the han is because they are afraid of arming han would topple their regime... sorry. their main army is already pretty much han based anyways.
Qing had no effective ethnic manchu units to speak of and if they had any it wouldn't matter anyways.
was manchus over confidence?or totally incompetent?fuedal mentality? bureucratic problem? absent of professional armies? trap by his own autocractism ?or all of them play factor.
until the mid 19th century, China do not even possess western style military academy to train there officer or even a professional standing armies or western style universities. total absent of civil society.
China under manchus (or even the ming dynasty) was shield from the out side the world.even the western science was consider threat,and property of manchus.university was nothing more than memorizing confucious though, and some ancient classic literaure.in restropect,China in 19 th century resemble any muslim countries in the middle east.
until the mid 19th century, China do not even possess western style military academy to train there officer or even a professional standing armies or western style universities. total absent of civil society.
China under manchus (or even the ming dynasty) was shield from the out side the world.even the western science was consider threat,and property of manchus.university was nothing more than memorizing confucious though, and some ancient classic literaure.in restropect,China in 19 th century resemble any muslim countries in the middle east.
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