Number of Ships PLAN must have to be supreme

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Totoro

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1. It really depends on what kind of preemptive strike policy china will settle on. This can not be known, it'd be pure espionage and politics. In theory, it is possible that china would be sure that US would intervene in a massive way. IF you're sure that's gonna happen, then nothing is stopping you from striking first - at okinawa (and other bases in japan), gathering ground forces around afghanistan and north korea, ready to move in if needed, striking guam if possible. Also, it'd mean that any US ship just approaching china would be attacked when chinese deem its possible. That would make it sure US would not risk trickling in their CVBGs as soon as they can get them to theater but that US would wait to group 4-6 CVBGs for a simultaneous strike.

Of course, all this written above is a highly risky political move which could turn china into the agressor against US, not the other way around. Longterm costs could easely outweigh the short term benefits of such early strikes - all depending on the info of what real US plans would be. In my opinion, china would not strike US first, unless it is very obvious a US attack is imminent - numerous additional USAF squadrons being sent to japan would be such a signal.

2. I don't have any inside info like you, sea dog, might have so i'm just writing what USN said in its official papers. And that is that, under the new battle plan, 6 CVBGs will be sent to the pacific area, with 4 of them being able to engage in a war within a week. I would assume one or two more CVBGs from the gulf area / mediterranean could be redirected in the same time frame. So this is my assesment: one CVBG within 24 hours, 3 groups within 72 hours, 5-6 groups within a week, 7-8 groups within a month.

It really does depend on the time of china's choosing. They may plan the whole ordeal to begin at the moment which maximizes the time USN needs to get a good deal of their boats to the theater. Out of 12 carriers that could be called into service, at least three are undergoing maintenance at any given time. 1-2 more are in their post-deployment cycle. 1-2 more training for their next deployment cycle. Maximal theoretical number of carriers USN could deploy is, in my opion, 8. With 6 being more realistic number, since time is and will always be of the essence, and USN will probably choose not to wait for a month to gather more than 6 CVBGs.

3. It is silly to talk about the future. In my opinion it is in US interest for the conflict to happen earlier rather than later, if there is gonna be a conflict. Looking at long term, the capability gap has been diminishing and will continue to diminish. Navy JSF won't form the first active squadron before 2012-2013. Who knows what sort of stuff US or China will have active then. So lets please lay off the future talk and concentrate on 2006.
 

Sea Dog

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Totoro said:
I don't have any inside info like you, sea dog, might have so i'm just writing what USN said in its official papers.

I don't have any inside info either. :confused: I'm also going by open source info. I'm also just going by what I know from experience, and from looking at sites like navy.mil and such. Just like everyone else here. But I do know USN CSG's and SSN's are at a very high state of readiness right now. And they all have a very high ops tempo as well. The deployment of 7 CSG's last year was specifically intended to show that USN CSG's can amass on scene incredibly fast if needed nowadays.
 
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Totoro

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Assembling 7 CVBGs for show of force at your time of choosing is quite different than mustering whatever ready forces you have at the time of your opponent's choosing.

I've done a little bit more work on this topic and the distances involved are quite huge. If carrier groups take the absolutely straightest, shortest routes, travelling at 25 knots the whole time (in my opinion unlikely - burkes would need refuelling plus who knows what the sea conditions would be like) these are the times it'd take them to get to taiwan:
WA based carriers: 209 hours (8,7 days)
CA based carriers: 237 hours (9,9 days)
Hawaii based carriers: 171 hours (7,1 days)
Guam based carriers: 53 hours (2,2 days)
Yokosuka based carrier, at 30 knots: 36 hours.

Yokosuka and guam ones would be able to actually start their air operations earlier than that, of course, but at the same time it is unlikely they would be taking the shortest, straightest route as chinese forces are too close to risk such a thing. This is especially true for yokosuka carrier, which in my opinion would take quite a detour to the west at first, rather than going straight towards taiwan.

One has to add time to get crews and supplies on the carrier, too, even if the ship itself is ready - is not undergoing any kind of renovation or maintenance work. I would assume 12-24 hours would be a minimum to gather crew and get all the supplies - in average, realistic conditions. But even 2-3 days of prep work seems likely for certain small number of ships.

So, total time to get into action seems to be at least 2 days for yokosuka carrier, 2,5 days for guam one (when or if it gets homeported there), some 9 days for a potential pearl harbor ported carrier and over 10 days for US western coast ones. While that reads worse for USN than what i wrote in my previous post, it is likely at least one or two carriers would be at sea close enough and ready to redirect at any given time. So i'll revise my estimate here:
one group ready to attack within 36 hours.
2-3 groups ready to attack within 72 hours. (assuming guam has a carrier too)
3-4 groups ready to attack within a week.
5-6 groups ready to attack within 10-11 days.
7-8 groups within a month or so.

These, in my opinion, are excellent response times for the USN, when one takes into account the significance of even a single carrier group. While a single lone CVBG would be quite volnerable against combined assets of PLAN and PLAAF, already two groups protecting each other would be almost impossibly tough nut to crack. My current estimate is, if USN carriers keep away enough, some 700 km from the china's coast, two carriers working together would be able to survive.

China could neutralize a lone one, or even (at most) two groups one after another, but i doubt it could neutralize two or more groups protecting each other. Of course, there's a great difference between being able to protect yourself in order to survive and being able to strike a a large blow to the enemy while protecting yourself. Which is why anything under sending 4 groups together would not be cost effective for the US.
 

isthvan

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MIGleader said:
depends on how much theyre paid at the time:D . i i were rich taiwanese guy with a sports car and girlfriend at home, I wouldnt stick around with the military during war and fight for a nearly lost cause. Morale isnt great for the taiwanese military. Neither is pay. Its military isnt that imposing, and can be decapitated with one good preliminary strike.

Well my friend that’s you… I would have to disagree… If you would have any military experience you would know that money is one of last things that drives soldiers…
And for decapitating ROC military whit one strike please remember that they are preparing for PRC invasion for last 57 years…


MIGleader said:
China's Mings are on the verge of retirement. The rest are mid-90's technology or higher. since the yuans stats arnt revealed fo all we know, it could be the most advanced diessl sub on earth.

Sorry but the fact that those subs are made in 90s does not make them 90s tech… And there are other problems like quality of work Russians did… As I remember China, India and Iran were not to happy whit quality control in Russian shipyards… As for Yuan’s I believe that they are not that much better then Kilo’s… You may believe that they are in the same liege whit German subs but I would put my money on 100 years of German sub construction rather then on Russian technology transfer to China…
 

Roger604

Senior Member
isthvan said:
Well my friend that’s you… I would have to disagree… If you would have any military experience you would know that money is one of last things that drives soldiers…
And for decapitating ROC military whit one strike please remember that they are preparing for PRC invasion for last 57 years…

Actually, the ones who've been waiting for 57 years are the old guard KMT. And those senior officers have all been retired by the Green administration because the old guard KMT don't want independence either.

[As for the rest of the people, half of the island see themselves as being economically dependent on China anyway. It's only the die hard greens and the glut of foreign cultural/political influence that keeps the TI movement alive.]


isthvan said:
Sorry but the fact that those subs are made in 90s does not make them 90s tech… And there are other problems like quality of work Russians did… As I remember China, India and Iran were not to happy whit quality control in Russian shipyards… As for Yuan’s I believe that they are not that much better then Kilo’s… You may believe that they are in the same liege whit German subs but I would put my money on 100 years of German sub construction rather then on Russian technology transfer to China…

The fact that China chooses Yuans to Amurs, I think, strongly rebuts your theory.
 

isthvan

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Roger604 said:
Actually, the ones who've been waiting for 57 years are the old guard KMT. And those senior officers have all been retired by the Green administration because the old guard KMT don't want independence either.

[As for the rest of the people, half of the island see themselves as being economically dependent on China anyway. It's only the die hard greens and the glut of foreign cultural/political influence that keeps the TI movement alive.]

Change in political course does not mean that military does not have capability of defending Taiwan anymore…
We agreed that there would be no invasion if Taiwan is not going to declare independence… And if Taiwan declares independence that would probably mean that majority of people voted for independence… So I think they would fight…


Roger604 said:
The fact that China chooses Yuans to Amurs, I think, strongly rebuts your theory.

Or there could be that they would rather have slightly less capable indigenous design then depend on Russians … Besides I do not think that Amur is in the same league whit new western design either…
Naturally that’s only my opinion and it does not worth a shit because I can’t deliver any evidence to back it… But I did not see any evidence that would make me change it either…
 

Totoro

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If we're gonna use that logic then f-22 is 80s design, b-2 even bit older than that. Design is a shell. It is what you put around it and in it is what matters a great deal. If it was not like that we would see a new ship class and a new plane class deployed every 10 years, instead of every 30 or so. No one is saying that chinese equipment isnt somewhat behind of what US has to offer but that difference is around a decade or so, not more. Of course, in certain areas the difference is double that. It's silly to say kilo is 70s tech as it implies its old. While in fact germany's 212 draws from its predecessor quite a bit. Shape wise, kilo is what today's diesel subs are designed like. 209 was more like the chinese song class, from the outside, just like 212 is more like yuan class.

I would guess germans, swedes, etc still have the upper hand in sonar tech, propeller tech, aip, etc. But the capability difference isnt 30 years like that 70s tech claim makes it sound but perhaps a third of that figure.
 

isthvan

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Totoro said:
If we're gonna use that logic then f-22 is 80s design, b-2 even bit older than that. Design is a shell. It is what you put around it and in it is what matters a great deal. If it was not like that we would see a new ship class and a new plane class deployed every 10 years, instead of every 30 or so. No one is saying that chinese equipment isnt somewhat behind of what US has to offer but that difference is around a decade or so, not more. Of course, in certain areas the difference is double that. It's silly to say kilo is 70s tech as it implies its old. While in fact germany's 212 draws from its predecessor quite a bit. Shape wise, kilo is what today's diesel subs are designed like. 209 was more like the chinese song class, from the outside, just like 212 is more like yuan class.

I would guess germans, swedes, etc still have the upper hand in sonar tech, propeller tech, aip, etc. But the capability difference isnt 30 years like that 70s tech claim makes it sound but perhaps a third of that figure.

Totoro I wasn’t trying to say that Kilos are bad subs… When they were introduced in soviet fleet they make huge qualitative leap compared to older soviet diesels since they use allot technologies developed for then new generations of soviet nukes…
But they were still behind western counterparts of that generation and you could agree that Soviets were inferior to western sub tech in many areas and that they did not manage to close that gap until the end of the cold war…
Now if we consider Russian financial and other problems in 90s and western progress in all tech areas during that time I would believe that this capability gap at least staid the same…
Naturally I’m joust stating my opinion and since only Russians and there customers (and USN) know how good Kilos really are I see no point in this debate…
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
Well my friend that’s you… I would have to disagree… If you would have any military experience you would know that money is one of last things that drives soldiers…
And for decapitating ROC military whit one strike please remember that they are preparing for PRC invasion for last 57 years…

And the PLA has been preparing for an invasion too. preparing for 57 years means nothing unless its relevant to modern battle. Are AAA guns placed 57 years ago to protect against invasion going to be much help today? I dont think so. Taiwan only started aquiring relevant technology back in the 90s.

Sorry but the fact that those subs are made in 90s does not make them 90s tech… And there are other problems like quality of work Russians did… As I remember China, India and Iran were not to happy whit quality control in Russian shipyards… As for Yuan’s I believe that they are not that much better then Kilo’s… You may believe that they are in the same liege whit German subs but I would put my money on 100 years of German sub construction rather then on Russian technology transfer to China…

Since all we have are opinions and no facts, lets quit this ***** contest untill further info. As america has absolutely no modern diesel sub tech,, its dependant on comparing foreign models. In a real situation, a gotland would not be facing off agaisnt a yuan, but ASW units of the fleet would.

Lets keep body parts out of this
 
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SampanViking

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As a Brit I know only too well that a huge navy; although a major asset in a war, is a major liability in Peacetime. I would also agree with a much earlier statement about
taking three years to build a Battleship but three centuries to build a navel tradition

I think China is probably doing the right thing and developing its experience and know how rather than jump into an artificial arms race. The demands upon; and therefore the size of, China's navy will grow naturally in response to its real and legitimate trade interests. During this period China will continue to develop its Industrial and Technological base in conjuction with its military Seafareing skills.

One point though, even now, I would not underestimate China's Industrial ouput potential in the event of a crisis. I believe China is now the world biggest Industrial producer, and we were shown by the US in WW2 how such production potential can be harnessed and utilised in wartime.
 
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