Not so stealthy: the $15b fighters

Andrew said:

My point is really that if we look at the evolution of American fighter design, and if we omit the discussion about electronic capabilities and networking etc., then we do have to concede that the F-35 and the F-18F, both of which have cost lots of money to develop and which will be deployed in large numbers, are not a great step forward. In absolute terms, mainly due to their superior electronics, they may be more deadly than anything the US Navy has fielded until today, but still, I would say that these designs cannot compare in significance to the the F-4 Corsair, the Phantom or the Tomcat. Similarly, nobody would disagree that the British Navy of today could in a matter of hours sink the fleet of the Empire of 1929, however, nevertheless, Britain's overall decline since then is obvious.

Click to expand...

Britian's decline as a global power has more to do with evolution of the Empire, into independent states of the Commonwealth after WW2. The low point for the British Navy was just prior to the Falklands War, when the British government had considered scrapping its entire carrier force.

Today the future of British Navy's carrier force is more secure, so you could say the situation actually improved.

If we only look at numbers, the US Navy had 100 carriers + 27 under construction at end of WW2 in 1945. Today the USN has far fewer number of carriers, but the cost, size, and capability of the carriers have gone up by a huge margain.

Is the F-35 a huge leap over the F-18? Both planes might deliver the same bombs with the same accuracy, but the F-18 will look like a big "shoot me now" target on radar, versus F-35 might not show up on your opponent's radar. You can't deliver bombs on target if you get shot down.

IDonT said:

Ahhh now I see where your coming from. The myth that the F-18F or the F-35 is aerdynamically inferior to that of the F-14 and other flanker variants. That is just a myth. The super bug has higher angle of attack than the F-14 and at some speeds much more manueverable.

Consider this for a moment, from the basic Su-27 airframe, the Russians developed the the Su-35, basically an SU-27 with superior radar and thrust vectoring. Could the USN do the same? The super bug already has one of the best radar in the world. Adding a more powerful and thrust vectoring engine is not much of a strech of the imagination. Remember, the US had them long before the Russians.

Another matter is what makes you think the the technology gap between the US and other nations is closing? No other nation spends as much on R&D than the US. The best that the competition can muster is a Flanker derivative. The Jxx and the PakFA have not yet past the conceptual stage. By the time they are ready, the F-18 and F-35's replacement should be available.

Click to expand...

Just correcting you there, the su-35 has canards too. It does not have TVC, thats the su-37.

What do you mean? The russians have actually installed TVC engines on operational fighters(the MKI). The u.s has only put them on test aircraft. Thus, russia is ahead in TVC.

The f-18 is aerodynamically inferior to the su-27, it is a fact. The flanker uses its entire body as a lift surface, while the f-18 merely has wings and root extensions. The flanker also has more powerful engines.

I believe the su-47 and mig-1.44 rival the level of stealth the f-35 offers. If they were feilded, they would pose a serious threat to it. j-xx will be flying in as soon 3 years, and entering service by 2012-2015.

I really don't think that the Su-47 can be anywhere near as stealthy as a JSF. The wings being forward-swept must increase it's RCS, and there's obviously a reason why Russia is going with other (better) designs. And as far as Russia's thrust vectoring tech being better than that of the U.S. I have seen demonstrations (videos) of both Su-30MKI, Su-37 and one more Sukhoi aircraft but I can't recall the designation number. And I have seen videos of the F-22 and JSF in action. All of these aircraft are capable of outstanding maneuverability.(sp?) I think that the superior avionics and
fly-by-wire tech of the F-22/JSF, compared to the huge thrust and aerodynamic design incorperated with canards and thrust vectoring of the Sukhoi aircraft put these planes in very much the same category when it comes to performance, and when it comes down to within visual range dogfights. But that is really the only place where the Sukhoi aircraft can take these planes on, and even then the stealth of the American planes will give them a leg up, and it will remain that way until Russia has enough money to really invest in this so called "plasma stealth."

I think it'd be really great for the J-XX to be revealed and just make all these Russian planes obsolete, it'd really be a statement of China's technologic and economic capability. That'd give the F-22 pilot's something to sweat about.

MIGleader said:

What do you mean? The russians have actually installed TVC engines on operational fighters(the MKI). The u.s has only put them on test aircraft. Thus, russia is ahead in TVC.

Click to expand...

The F-22 is not a test aircraft, it is operational. However, the russians have 3D TVC vs. 2D for the F-22. 2D TVC on the F-22 is a result of stealth considerations and due to the fact that vertical TVC actually does allow for greater lateral maneuverabilty (roll), as well as the more obvious increased max AoA and pitch rate.

I don't know if this makes the US or Russia ahead in TVC, but bascially TVC is nothing new and the US, Russia, China, Euro nations can all implement it if desired.