New Type98/99 MBT thread

[HighGround]

It's very dubious if this is actually an advantage. In the battlefield, a M1 effectively only has whatever thin armor shields the blowout panels in the turret, which will be the most exposed part of the tank. The crew can often survive a M1 being mission killed from ammo cook off, but then you have a likely wounded crew stranded as dismounted infantry in a modern battlefield environment where their survival chances range from low to very low.

It's not dubious at all. Many crews in Ukraine survived due to better safety. A crew being "stranded" is far more preferable than a crew being blown up. Which has happened even to the T-90M, where the autoloader is far better protected from any catastrophic explosion. The tank crew is easily the most important part of the tank and should be protected at all costs, even if it means increasing the chance of a mission kill.

It's all moot anyway, a tank can be fairly easily disabled, blinded, and stopped by a competent military unit. Experienced crews are well aware of their vehicles' capabilities and weaknesses. They will approach any engagement with intent to minimize those weaknesses and increase their own chance of survival.

You can't compensate or plan for your tank suffering a catastrophic explosion because your auto-loader carousel blew up from a mine.

 

[Index]

It's not dubious at all. Many crews in Ukraine survived due to better safety. A crew being "stranded" is far more preferable than a crew being blown up. Which has happened even to the T-90M, where the autoloader is far better protected from any catastrophic explosion. The tank crew is easily the most important part of the tank and should be protected at all costs, even if it means increasing the chance of a mission kill.

It's all moot anyway, a tank can be fairly easily disabled, blinded, and stopped by a competent military unit. Experienced crews are well aware of their vehicles' capabilities and weaknesses. They will approach any engagement with intent to minimize those weaknesses and increase their own chance of survival.

You can't compensate or plan for your tank suffering a catastrophic explosion because your auto-loader carousel blew up from a mine.

Again, penetrating turret and penetrating lower hull are not comparable situations.

Lower hull penetration into Abrams kills everyone as well. The problem för Abrams is that you can also disable it with lighter weapons against a much less armored and more exposed turret, especially the sides.

 

[HighGround]

Again, penetrating turret and penetrating lower hull are not comparable situations.

Lower hull penetration into Abrams kills everyone as well.

It does not. You'd actually have to get quite lucky to get everyone, or employ a pretty sizeable explosion. Conversely, a catastrophic explosion in a T series tank will almost certainly kill everyone inside it. The Russians themselves have taken pretty direct measures to reduce the chances of that happening and it shows in the T-90M. They are much less prone to blowing up, but it does still happen occasionally.

The problem för Abrams is that you can also disable it with lighter weapons against a much less armored and more exposed turret, especially the sides.

This is true for every tank, and the T-90M does have a larger turret than the T-72, it's a worthwhile tradeoff. Tanks are going to have vulnerabilities, and enemies will exploit them. The purpose of a tank isn't to be anti-everything.

I would argue that China, with its massive industrial base, should absolutely place a premium on crew safety. Tanks can be replaced quite easily, people take 20+ years to mature. Eliminating any chance of a catastrophic explosion should be in the cards.

 

[Index]

It does not. You'd actually have to get quite lucky to get everyone, or employ a pretty sizeable explosion. Conversely, a catastrophic explosion in a T series tank will almost certainly kill everyone inside it. The Russians themselves have taken pretty direct measures to reduce the chances of that happening and it shows in the T-90M. They are much less prone to blowing up, but it does still happen occasionally.

If something makes it through into the crew compartment, it would have penetrated the nearly meter thick plate on the way in, the energy unleashed turns the crew compartment into a pressure cooker, killing everyone.

This is true for T90M as it is for Abrams (or T99, Merkava and so on). With the difference that in the Abrams, the ammo will not explode and make the tank unsalvageble. Because the ammo is stored in the turret, not on the tank's bottom.

This is true for every tank, and the T-90M does have a larger turret than the T-72, it's a worthwhile tradeoff. Tanks are going to have vulnerabilities, and enemies will exploit them. The purpose of a tank isn't to be anti-everything.

The problem is not turret size, but that the Abrams has all it's ammo in the turret blowout panel area. It gets disabled by hits other tanks can shrug off.

I would argue that China, with its massive industrial base, should absolutely place a premium on crew safety. Tanks can be replaced quite easily, people take 20+ years to mature. Eliminating any chance of a catastrophic explosion should be in the cards.

Yes and for maximum crew safety, there are many arguments for placing the ammo on the bottom and not the turret. The latter introduces a possibility of easily disabling the tank either by long range artillery splinters, light insurgent weapons and so on.

The strongest current solution would be an armored crew capsule which would vent away the explosion caused by a lower chassis hit into the carousel. Then, either the tank is destroyed, or the crew is, but not both at the same time. Without losing the advantages of storing the ammo in a more difficult to hit area.

 

[Heliox]

If something makes it through into the crew compartment, it would have penetrated the nearly meter thick plate on the way in, the energy unleashed turns the crew compartment into a pressure cooker, killing everyone.

There are many documented cases of penetration of MBTs that do not "turns the crew compartment into a pressure cooker, killing everyone". There are likewise documented cases where the penetrator damaged specific parts along the path of penetration and left the rest of the interior pretty much unscathed.

Most modern penetrators are either APFSDS or HEAT. In either case, the penetrator itself is a heavy metal long rod - inert and devoid of any explosive content. Almost all post-penetration effect is provided from the kinetic mass of bits of penetrator and defeated armour, collectively known as Behind Armour Debris (BAD).

APFSDS or HEAT, all such penetrators do not grow hot enough to cause significant pressure increase. Typical temperatures are around 600C. Take a hot metal rebar and throw it into a container ... not going to cause much drama unless it starts to vapourise liquids or deflagerate explosives. The one inherent component of a penetrator that will contribute explosive energy to post-penetration effects (as opposed to just KE effects from BAD) are penetrators made of pyrophorric materials. eg. DU penetrators are still being used because of this property (and also because of their tip adiabatic shearing properties which aid penetration) - the temperature and exposure to air within the penetrated space often results in a conflagaration of the DU powder/shards that adds significantly to the mess already being created by BAD. Also hence the use of Alu liners (amongst others) for Shape Charges (HEAT/EFP) as opposed to Cu liners for the pyrophorric effects despite it's poorer penetration capabilities.

"Penetration" itself can be also a whole spectrum of partial penetrations, limit penetrations, over-penetrations etc. Basically, there is no guarantee that a penetrator that "penetrated the nearly meter thick plate on the way in" is going to generate tremendous amounts of BAD. An example on the opposite end of the spectrum, a case of over-penetration, is hits on lightly armoured APCs being penetrated through-through on both sides with nothing touched or torched. Likewise, some at-limit penetrations will likely result in very little BAD or very low energy BAD which may be totally mitagated by anti-spall liners in the AFV. There is such a wide spectrum of penetration energy states to categorically state that any penetration will result in catastrophic consequences.

There is also the matter of the composition of the meter thick armour being mentioned. What is it made of? Spaced plates with large air gaps do a good job of distrupting long rods and also mitigating BAD (cos each succesive spaced plate actually acts as a witness plate that traps small shrapnel). A lot of composite materials also disrupt the penetration channel and significantly reduces/captures fragments that would form BAD via side-wall collisions.

Penetration mechanics is a complex topic. If you want to read more, you can trawl through this website of resources (

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[Rina]

ZTZ99A's machinegun RWS？

 

[votran]

The ammo is covered by steel plates in the caroussel, though, so it takes more than sparks and shrapnel to fall down and detonate it.

View attachment 136658

Once you get the crews to stop carrying extra ammo outside the autoloader, T tanks can be pretty resilient post penetration. Of course, it is, once it does ignites, all bets are off for the survival of the crew, though the Soviets did experiment with blowout panels on the T-95's autoloader, which has been adapted for the T-14.


It is a matter of trade-offs, as with everything. A solution like the M1 requires a massive turret and the survival of the crew is still dependant on the blast door being closed at the time the ammo in the bustle is hit or that the either the blast door or the plate that separates the ammo from the crew hasn't been compromised in any way by the impact, otherwise the explosion will go into the fighting comparment before the blowout panels.

russian tank crews in ukraine can't do that , drone threat force all ammo supply depot stay far way from frontline > harder to resupply
> must bring maximum ammo load whatever you can > can't escape space program dead even if they want to

 

[vincent]

russian tank crews in ukraine can't do that , drone threat force all ammo supply depot stay far way from frontline > harder to resupply
> must bring maximum ammo load whatever you can > can't escape space program dead even if they want to

Don't equate PLA with Russian forces. Take a look at the Zhuhai Airshow threads to see how many drone defense systems are presented.

 

[mlkoplm]

What is this bolted to the side?