T-72 tanks from Romania (probably T-72M) were sent to China during the 1980s. Romania first received the T-72s from USSR in 1978-1979. There's also saying Iran sent some captured Iraqi samples over to China too
New Type98/99 MBT thread
- Thread starter Dongfeng
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T-72 tanks from Romania (probably T-72M) were sent to China during the 1980s. Romania first received the T-72s from USSR in 1978-1979. There's also saying Iran sent some captured Iraqi samples over to China too
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
T72 And Romania seem controversial. Unless someone does a more in-depth look at what happened we have conflicting sources. Some say that the Russians have Romania 30 T72 in the 1970s others that No they were turned down and Romania got T72s from Isreal, captured from Syrian forces in the early 80s.
Which ever the case the Romanians Main MBT is based on T55 they seem to have built indigenous clones of T72 but only as prototypes.
Which ever the case the Romanians Main MBT is based on T55 they seem to have built indigenous clones of T72 but only as prototypes.
Check the SIPRI Arms Trade Register. It is generally recognized as credible. Romania did get it from the USSR, not from Israel. T-72s rarely encountered Israeli armor in 1982, and when they did, confirmed results were usually in favor of the T-72. IDF did not capture so many T-72s from Syrian Army that they would sell 30 to a single country
Of course, this is also a widely known engineer who was a teacher at PLA Military Engineering Institute, and is still a key figure in Chinese engineering academies. A receiver of numerous prizes, and over 100 cited papers. His claims have a lot of weight. What are the claims that Romania got T-72s from Israel sourced from?
That is an unconfirmed rumor. It’s just major straw grasping to connect two vehicles that are nothing alike for a reason that eludes me.
Why would China base a next generation tank on an export version of it’s then worst enemy’s tank?
The Type 96s are more close to Russian tanks from a doctrine perspective, but still feature very different technology. Biggest problem with that theory is that 99A is not based on 96A. The former is designed by Norinco and the latter by Inner Mongolia heavy industries.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Destroyed tanks particularly T72 And tanks with the carousel are generally not salvageable tanks. They tend to have a huge hole in the side and with the autoloaders configuration if defeated are only good for scrap metal.
Any tanks resold would have had to have been captured by either surrendering forces or abandoned.
My source
Was the source of the source I was going by by I spent hours looking deeper and as best I can it doesn't seem to pan out.
It seems like in 1978-9 the Romanians did get 30 tanks from the Russians. But those tanks as best I can tell are all accounted for.
The Romanians under there Leader were not "Good" Warsaw pact players and flirted with both the West and China.
Ceaușescu was known to have perged pro Moscow officers of his military and this occasionally irked the Russians. It especially is said to have come to a head after the invasion
of Czechoslovakia in 68. Romanian straight up sided with the Czecks and didn't participate. the Russians in 73 are said to have cut off military tech share with Romania which was said to be the reason for the PSL rifle in 1974 as opposed to Romanian production of the SVD. There seems a chunk of history here missing as to how in 4-5 years the Romanians get brand new top of the Soviet line MBT. In any case they never get any more and the Romanians wanted to build them indigenously.
Never said that China based the ZTZ-96/99/99A off of it, but it was used for studying purposes. A quick visual check should show they are not even marginally related. I am saying China did get some T-72 examples during the 1980s, and therefore the 2A46M gun. You said they never did. This is not straw-grasping at all.
Your source has already proven itself as non-credible. Israel never captured any T-72s in 1973, because none of the belligerents had T-72s to begin with. The T-72s were just rolling off the production lines in the earliest 'Ural' version. Romania, although not enjoying good relations with the USSR, was still one of the members of the WP. 30 tanks are obviously not enough to issue even an armored division, so they probably bought them (around the same time countries were frenzy-buying T-72s) for research or testing purposes also. USSR would definitely not refuse to sell their second-line MBTs either (T-64/T-80 being the first-line MBTs), like they did not refuse selling their second-line jet fighters either (MiG-29, with Su-27 being first-line).
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Wait a damn minute here.
My claim was it was in the 1980s. And my second source is reliable.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
@FishWings My claim was that
I know Damned well that the Russians didn't have full production of T72 in 73. My claim was in the 83 war. If you are going to do a victory lap keep it straight.
Still I find it questionable on if any sale to China then took place the Romanians had 30 tanks and still have 30 tanks.
But I also point out.
Either way by the late 1980s the PRC had the 125mm gun And autoloader
NOT THE 1970s!! Don't go rewriting history bucko!
I know Damned well that the Russians didn't have full production of T72 in 73. My claim was in the 83 war. If you are going to do a victory lap keep it straight.
Still I find it questionable on if any sale to China then took place the Romanians had 30 tanks and still have 30 tanks.
But I also point out.
What had me scratching my head was
You claim they got T72 from Romania that seems off.
Either way by the late 1980s the PRC had the 125mm gun And autoloader
Your source I am talking about:
I am referring to your post that I quoted, and only that post. The source I was referring to was the book, which on that page 141, stated Romania got T-72s from Israel, who themselves captured them in 1973. My claim that China got T-72 examples off Romania is backed up by the interview of the renowned engineer Xu Bin Shi, of which I had linked above in a previous post. As I said, arms trade register said USSR sent 30 T-72 tanks to Romania in 1978-1979, which is consistent with the year that many other USSR-allies or non-aligned countries bought T-72s.
On the contrary, there is very little evidence to support that China ever received any T-80s from Russia during 1993, or at all even. I used to believe that too, until the only source I can find that even mentions it is the globalsecurity website, which it gives no sources for. On the SIPRI arms trade register, the transaction doesn't exist either. Do you have more that I can read into the China T-80 deal? I am genuinely curious
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
We agree that that is impossible. The Russians had themselves not fielded T72 in 1973. The tank was still in prototype stage.
The stated dates of delivery to Romania in that posting would have worked for the 82-85 war with Lebanon.
Which I have doubts about as why would they have given any other 30 most advanced MBT to anyone?
And handing them off for a quick inspection is bogus metilargy and full reverse engineering would have destroyed the tank.
When the Mig 25 landed in Tokyo the US and Japanese went over every detail what the Russians got back was in Boxes and crates.
The Romanians still had 30 T72 when they put them up for sale again.