New Type98/99 MBT thread

[IronsightSniper]

One more comment to add to my previous post:

The time of anti-tank round (from tank gun) "slip" the tank armour - that time has long gone. If a modern SABOT round "slips" any kind of armor nowadays, we can really safely laugh at the one who developed that SABOT round. (Correct my spelling of SABOT, if any)

HEAT rounds don't "slip" either, especially modern complex armour are almost dedicated to "let it explode" as early as possible.

My personal though, only outdated-dud-RPG round, maybe "slip" some armour.

Modern APFSDS rounds won't slip (quite sure you mean ricochet) until it comes in contact with a piece of armor that's sloped at about 85+ degrees, so it's near horizontal really.

HEAT rounds will slip (ricochet). Spaced armor (let it explode as early as possible) is only good for light vehicles. Modern MBTs have advanced composite-ceramic with NERA and possible Tungsten/Depleted uranium armor arrays, which are basically impenetrable to most HEAT rounds out there.

 

[Red___Sword]

Modern APFSDS rounds won't slip (quite sure you mean ricochet) until it comes in contact with a piece of armor that's sloped at about 85+ degrees, so it's near horizontal really.

HEAT rounds will slip (ricochet). Spaced armor (let it explode as early as possible) is only good for light vehicles. Modern MBTs have advanced composite-ceramic with NERA and possible Tungsten/Depleted uranium armor arrays, which are basically impenetrable to most HEAT rounds out there.

Thanks for the military standard english.

So, if I am not taking it wrong, you state that as long as the warhead didn't penetrate the armour, it (whatever left of the warhead) ricochet the impact point.

How do you differentiate that:

Case 1, warhead hit directly at a nearly 90 degree armour, delivers most of the momentum to the armour, yet still fail to penetrate, and what's left of the twisted warhead bounce off the impact point.

Case 2, warhead at nearly 10- degree hit the armour, didn't actually deliver much momentum at the impact, and of course the armour stands. The mostly non-twisted warhead bounce off the impact and fly to certain direction with a (still) creditable speed and trajectory.

Because I am sure case 2 is THE SLIP (ricochet) I am talking about.

And it is THE SLIP I am refering, refer back to "Merkava's turret is insanely sloped, making it almost like a turtle. I really think that many anti tank rounds hitting it would simply slide against the turret instead of detonating." posted by pugachev_diver, at #1151, page 77. - That I do not agree with this comment.

Because those "insanely slopped" turret armour, are only (suck at technical english again) composite / ceramic plate (plate! accessory of the "main armour / hull armour"), structually weak. Those good looking plates, are not going to withstand a decent impact and do some magic like CASE 2 above, that structurely withstand the impact, bouncing off the warhead, without itself structually shattered.

Please refer to no_name's #1152, page 77, the 2nd picture. Merkava's goodlooking insanely slopped turret armour, are the purple color part of that picture. It is EFFECTIVE at do something of absorb certain amount energy of the warhead, SHATTER ITSELF in the process. The green main armour, maybe can then withstand the rest of the warhead. no_name's post is about type 99's armour, but almost all of modern MBT which (suddenly) have had a "slopped turret", is the same structure. (Check Leopard-II A6 German MBT's "slopped turret" - the inside)

But let that "insanely slopped" turret armour (ceramic plate) alone, to ricochet the whole warhead itself - like I said, (if happened) that APFSDS round, is laughable.

 

[IronsightSniper]

It doesn't matter how big your round is (unless it's bigger than the tank, but lets keep it reasonable), it will ricochet at certain angles, with the longer and skinnier ones ricocheting at more horizontal angles. The Merkava's turret is not sloped enough to ricochet modern APFSDS rounds. However, the armor that it has, can withstand the round.

In regards to no_name's picture, here's how the layout seems to be:

White bricks: High Hardness steel or Ceramic bolt-on plates (~50 mm thick)
Purple array: Sloped (~80 degrees) ballistic steel with ~15 cm of air gap
Green array: Actual turret armor

From my knowledge, it seems the array plans to:

1. Projectile hits Ceramic blocks, penetrates
2. Projectile hits sloped steel, slight chance of ricocheting, but probably won't (if you noticed, the majority of that purple part is vertical, while only the top part is near-horizontal).
3. Air gap allows projectile to deform
4. Green armor stops projectile cold

But yes, you are correct that the chance of a ricochet happening is laughable.

I thought M1s are expensive partly because of the depleted uranium used in it's armour. It also makes it hard to shape which is why the slope of the M1 is moderate and flat rather than curved.

Nope. The DU is only used for the Front Turret part of the tank, a relatively small portion. Even then, it's in a mesh, like a chain-linked fence fashion. The turret is moderately sloped, IMO, is because we wanted to have more volume in the turret, and so, if we were to insanely slope it, it'd be shorter, and thus less volume.

 

[no_name]

It seems that the type 99's designers had intended for the hard cermaic tiles to take most of the beatings because they are easily replaceable. The purple part of the armour is designed to deform and absorbe energy in such a way that will not affect the green underlying tank structure (A bit like how modern car body is designed to crumble, I guess). The airgap is for shaped charges to dissipate its energy.

The purple and white parts are designed to be replaceable.

I think the type 99's front armour may ricochet some rpg, heat rounds and low speed or low energy projectiles. But I think the slope of the armour, while also with such ricochet in mind, is mainly designed to direct the impact force at an angle so that it does not impact into the main body of the tank but rather just performs a hard "shove" on it backwards.

The designer is putting faith on the tank's ceramic tiles to be rigid enough to stop energy rounds (maybe shatter in the process) --> it converts the penetrating energy to an more blunt impact energy on the whole front body of the tank, and the purple section will be flexible enough to absorb that impact, and deform if necessary.

 

[KingLouis]

Just a question since modern tanks are so heavily armored. How does say the Taliban or al qaeda going to destory it.

 

[Red___Sword]

It seems that the type 99's designers had intended for the hard cermaic tiles to take most of the beatings because they are easily replaceable. The purple part of the armour is designed to deform and absorbe energy in such a way that will not affect the green underlying tank structure (A bit like how modern car body is designed to crumble, I guess). The airgap is for shaped charges to dissipate its energy.

The purple and white parts are designed to be replaceable.

I think the type 99's front armour may ricochet some rpg, heat rounds and low speed or low energy projectiles. But I think the slope of the armour, while also with such ricochet in mind, is mainly designed to direct the impact force at an angle so that it does not impact into the main body of the tank but rather just performs a hard "shove" on it backwards.

The designer is putting faith on the tank's ceramic tiles to be rigid enough to stop energy rounds (maybe shatter in the process) --> it converts the penetrating energy to an more blunt impact energy on the whole front body of the tank, and the purple section will be flexible enough to absorb that impact, and deform if necessary.

M1A2 is a bad example in this matter, because it dose not have that "slopped, rigid, hollowed" accessory ceramic plate, outside its main armour. LeoIIA6, Merkava IV, all good example. The 锲形装甲　what we are talking about. Type 99 learn from them.

The main purpose for those goodlooking 锲形装甲, as the design of LeoIIA6, Merkava IV alike... is to absorb certain impact energy from APFSDS round, leave the main armour to deal the rest; or, disorientate a huge amount of energy from HEAT round, leave the main armour to deal the rest. The point is THE MAIN ARMOUR ALWAYS NEED TO DEAL WITH "THE REST" OF WARHEAD ENERGY.

We can either laugh at those so called 750+ mm RHA anti-tank round can not even penetrate those 20mm+ ceramic accessory plate; or we can really admire those extraterrestrial technology alike 20mm+ ceramic plate withstands whatever throw to them.

no_name, you are a kind person, all the above comments I'm talking, is about the modern day funny idea of "anti-tank round ricochet from the tank armour". Since I am not an Engilish native, my understanding of "ricochet" maybe wrong - is this ricochet the same meaning of 跳弹 in Chinese? That the warhead act like a ping pang ball, bonce off the impact like case 2 in #1162 I am talking about?

Because in Case 1, it is NOT ricochet or 跳弹, it is simply the MAIN ARMOUR tough enough to withstand the TOTAL impact from the warhead. Being a 跳弹, it has to be the warhead didn't even deliver much of the kinetic energy to the impact, and already bonce off to another direction, with much of its speed left.

Bottom line: Accessory ceramic plate do not make that magic of ricochet the warhead, ALONE.

 

[Red___Sword]

Just a question since modern tanks are so heavily armored. How does say the Taliban or al qaeda going to destory it.

"More daka!!!" - Ork of warhammer 40K.

More TNT inside a single IED.

Or, RPG shoot the weak side armour, or even from behind.

 

[KingLouis]

I think even from the back the RPG can't even penetrate the armor. Is there any Iraq or Afghan veteran in this forum?

 

[no_name]

I think the iraqi insurgents just use IEDs of a couple artillery rounds buried underground. The impact force makes jam of people by throwing them inside tanks.

edit: maybe harder for tanks but enough to damage the treads.

 

[pugachev_diver]

I believe M1A2s have been penetrated in both Afghanistan and Iraq early on in their invasions. Both were done by unknown weapons, but definitely not heavy weapons. Only portable weapons were possible at that stage of war.

Just to clarify, by slide I meant literally sliding. Like playground slides.

Like this.

I thought when rounds hit a surface that is very very flat, like the Merkava, it would just rub against the surface until it completely passing it. Especially that majority of the RPGs I have seen being fired were fired when the gunner is half kneeling on the ground, this makes the round almost parallel to the armour.

The best example would be that famous movie, U-571. There was a scene when a torpedo hit their submarine, it did not explode, but rather kept sliding against the surface.