New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

KYli said:

That isn't an excuse for not doing risk assessment and due diligent. That can't explain why there are so many high profile of cases that Chinese companies got screwed and lost a ton of money.

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KYli said:

It is more due to incentives. Most Chinese automakers have made a ton of money and have little incentives to invest in developing their own vehicles. Lastly, ICE cars have much more IP restrictions than EV and batteries.

That's the problem. CATL needs to hand over their know how and the process to Ford in order for Ford to make the batteries. Why not both, if the US companies could make hundreds of billions from China, why shouldn't Chinese companies negotiate a better deal. CATL and many Chinese companies are shortchanged themselves for not getting a better deal. Ford needs CATL as much as CATL needs Ford and probably even more so in many aspects.

You keep spinning that it is about grievances but ignore the fact that things have happened and will happen again unless Chinese companies are more serious about risk assessment and don't shortchange themselves for a bad deal.

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tphuang said:

I'm not spinning anything. You haven't made a single argument on why this is a threat to CATL. You don't seem to understand what is important in battery production at all. Seriously, you should read what I wrote in past hundreds of pages in this thread.

Building and scaling up battery factories is really hard. It's not something Ford can just do. The fact that they are relying on CATL's supply chain in China indicates that they are putting their future behind CATL. Whatever Ford can produce will be entirely dependent on what CATL's supply chain can produce. There is no effort here from Ford to do more than just take supplies and then assemble them using CATL's instructions. Where is the danger? Stop imagining things and actually put a coherent answer here. Don't just keep complaining and believe that you are actually making a point.

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KYli said:

I perfectly understand what is off topic means. But I respectfully disagree with your claim that my assessment of Chinese companies don't have a good record of doing enough risk assessment and due diligent is irrelevant to this discussion. I don't see why we should blindly accept that CATL is doing its homework and know what it is doing. We know for a fact that many Chinese companies have done many bad deals and made many wasteful investment.

Feel free to delete my post or even ban me. I don't care. It isn't the first time that some Mods think they could use his/her position to silence me. I speak what I think is relevant that is IF you are trying to claim that CATL knows what it is doing then I can argue with examples that companies even great companies can make terrible and horrible mistake and bad investment and bad deal.

Ford has larger battery deals with LG and SK than CATL. So I don't think you can claim Ford is putting its future on CATL. Ford is just diversifying its battery supply chain from multiple sources.

I didn't say the deal is a threat to CATL's survival. I said that this is a bad deal. I said the risks outweigh the rewards. All Japanese and Korean battery makers have gotten better deals than CATL. CATL isn't desperately needed this deal. It has two more options. It can build a plant in Mexico that CATL has full control. It can continue export its batteries to Ford from China.

CATL is sharing its production know how, management how know and technology know how to just be a supplier to Ford. But the only gain it got is a foot into the NA market. NA market might be big but the market has already been gobbled up by Japan and Korean battery makers. Basically, CATL ends up with just being a supplier that shares its technology. This is a lousy deal that the only reason to have is the potential of NA market.

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henrik said:

Are the pesky Japan and Korean battery makers getting good deals from Ford at all? Are they giving away their technology?

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KYli said:

Ford has larger battery deals with LG and SK than CATL. So I don't think you can claim Ford is putting its future on CATL. Ford is just diversifying its battery supply chain from multiple sources.

I didn't say the deal is a threat to CATL's survival. I said that this is a bad deal. I said the risks outweigh the rewards. All Japanese and Korean battery makers have gotten better deals than CATL. CATL isn't desperately needed this deal. It has two more options. It can build a plant in Mexico that CATL has full control. It can continue export its batteries to Ford from China.

CATL is sharing its production know how, management how know and technology know how to just be a supplier to Ford. But the only gain it got is a foot into the NA market. NA market might be big but the market has already been gobbled up by Japan and Korean battery makers. Basically, CATL ends up with just being a supplier that shares its technology. This is a lousy deal that the only reason to have is the potential of NA market.

Edit: Removed off topic contents.

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tphuang said:

Alright, deleted your off topic rants. If you want to complain further, you can do it in the appropriate thread.

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tphuang said:

As for your CATL comment, you have no proof that Japanese/Korean battery makers have gotten better deals than CATL. You have no proof that Ford is willing to accept a deal where CATL produces batteries at a plant in Mexico. As I said, everything is done for political reasons. Ford was in constant communication with the Biden admin to make sure the plant at least qualifies for half of the $7000 subsidy.

As for your second point, you still haven't shown why what CATL is sharing is unreasonable or more than what LG and Panasonic are sharing. You just assume so with no basis. I can assure you LG also has to share a lot of its tech. A few months ago, Taylor Ogan tweeted that Korean gov't actually blocked LG from sharing certain tech with its American JV partner. Imagine that. Chinese gov't can also block sensitive tech if it thinks what CATL is sharing is too sensitive. But I bet you they won't, because LFP tech really isn't all that sensitive by now. Supply chain is what matters.

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