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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Can someone explain the seemingly big drop of payload capacities of New Glenn from LEO's 45t to GTO's 13.6T? That is GTO/LEO=30% for a two staged rocket. Falcon 9 FT is 36.8%. Although Kerosine 1st stage gives Flcon 9 advantage, but Hydrolox 2nd stage should give New Glenn advantage too. So I would expect New Glenn to be at least equal to Falcon 9 or even better (if payload does not scale linearly with overall mass).

BTW, the figures for New Glenn are from their user guide and are final design spec, not temparory figures of prototyping.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Also keep in mind you can't just stack more and more mass without increasing diameter or change fuel, at some point you'll reach the physics limit of engine chamber pressure with a given fuel chemistry. Right now they're basically betting everything on Raptor 3 and Starship v3, and even then I would not be surprised if final performance is not much different than Long March 10, and achieved after Long March 10
I guess you meant CZ-9 which is in the same league as starship.
As for Blue Orgin, New Glen is a properly engineered rocket, certainly better than Starship, but its LEO lift is half of LM10, and it's GTO / TLI performance is actually lower than LM5, i.e. it wouldn't even be able to launch Chang'e 5 at 8,200 kg to TLI... Yeah they're betting on in-orbit fuel depot too, but counting on it to pull off manned lunar mission is asking a lot.
Are you talking about CZ-10 or 9? New Glenn's LEO is 45t (200km, 51.6 degree), CZ-10 is no less than 70t, so New Glenn's LEO is well above half of CZ10. If you are talking about CZ-9, then its LEO is 150t, then New Glenn is less than 1/3 of it.
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think the worst nightmare scenario that NASA should strive to avoid is the prospect of astronauts stranded on the moon because the Starship toppled over or the engines fail to reignite to lift back off the surface. The more they rush, the less time they have to prepare for contingencies. Also, the SpaceX methodology, that is to do adopt an agile approach to development, doesn't provide much comfort when you are quarter of a million miles from Earth.
I think NASA's mentality now is the same as the time when they decided to skip escape system for space shuttle, "we will have to make it (starship HLS/shuttle) much much more reliable". I won't comment on that as history has told us.

Further more I think NASA is gambling that in the first moon landing everything works and they immediately stop further moon missions and call a win (beating China for the 1st). They are betting on that just like shuttle's high risk did not menifest in the early missions. Afterall the whole rush is more about political statement than science ever since Obama's time when US found that China's moon program is catching up quickly.

Lastly and also what I am really curious of is what SpaceX' thought is of landing a skyscraper like HLS on an uneven and not-leveled moon surface without all the landing aide becons and assistance guidance systems on earth.
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
I guess you meant CZ-9 which is in the same league as starship.

Are you talking about CZ-10 or 9? New Glenn's LEO is 45t (200km, 51.6 degree), CZ-10 is no less than 70t, so New Glenn's LEO is well above half of CZ10. If you are talking about CZ-9, then its LEO is 150t, then New Glenn is less than 1/3 of it.
Nope, I meant LM10 at 70 ton. Run the numbers yourself using velocity-altitude curve from their streams, see how much takeoff mass they need to add to go from suborbital to minimum orbit with no payload, how much takeoff mass for +20 ton payload, and verify that with performance delta after they added 25% upper stage fuel on v2. Remember v1 couldn't even make orbit with no payload and it was denied until v2 and v3 were announced.

For New Glen, sure 45 is more than half of 70, but not by enough to change calculus on lunar missions.
 

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can someone explain the seemingly big drop of payload capacities of New Glenn from LEO's 45t to GTO's 13.6T? That is GTO/LEO=30% for a two staged rocket. Falcon 9 FT is 36.8%. Although Kerosine 1st stage gives Flcon 9 advantage, but Hydrolox 2nd stage should give New Glenn advantage too. So I would expect New Glenn to be at least equal to Falcon 9 or even better (if payload does not scale linearly with overall mass).

BTW, the figures for New Glenn are from their user guide and are final design spec, not temparory figures of prototyping.
Remember LM5B's 21-ton core stage goes into orbit with payload.
 

gpt

Junior Member
Registered Member
Can someone explain the seemingly big drop of payload capacities of New Glenn from LEO's 45t to GTO's 13.6T? That is GTO/LEO=30% for a two staged rocket. Falcon 9 FT is 36.8%. Although Kerosine 1st stage gives Flcon 9 advantage, but Hydrolox 2nd stage should give New Glenn advantage too. So I would expect New Glenn to be at least equal to Falcon 9 or even better (if payload does not scale linearly with overall mass).

BTW, the figures for New Glenn are from their user guide and are final design spec, not temparory figures of prototyping.
Blue Origin has not offered an expendable variant of New Glenn (at least not yet), therefore the figures in the user guide are what the reusable mode can achieve. It's expendable capability should be much higher.
SpaceX is willing to and does expend their boosters on the FH from time to time to achieve certain mission objectives.
 

nativechicken

New Member
Registered Member
Can someone explain the seemingly big drop of payload capacities of New Glenn from LEO's 45t to GTO's 13.6T? That is GTO/LEO=30% for a two staged rocket. Falcon 9 FT is 36.8%. Although Kerosine 1st stage gives Flcon 9 advantage, but Hydrolox 2nd stage should give New Glenn advantage too. So I would expect New Glenn to be at least equal to Falcon 9 or even better (if payload does not scale linearly with overall mass).

BTW, the figures for New Glenn are from their user guide and are final design spec, not temparory figures of prototyping.
The claim that the Falcon Heavy rocket has a LEO (Low Earth Orbit) payload capacity of 70 tons is misleading.
The Falcon Heavy shares nearly the same fairing diameter and height as the Falcon 9 rocket. While there were plans to increase the fairing height, they appear to have failed. This means the payload volume for both the Falcon Heavy and Falcon 9 is almost identical.

In rocketry, a critical parameter is the **length-to-diameter ratio**, which partially determines the core stage’s ability to safely fly under maximum dynamic pressure. For the Falcon 9, a 3–4-meter-class rocket, this ratio is approximately 21, approaching its design limit. Larger-diameter rockets inherently face lower maximum safe length-to-diameter ratios because their relative wall thickness decreases as diameter increases. Since the Falcon Heavy’s core stage is nearly identical to the Falcon 9’s, its payload volume is effectively capped.

The Falcon 9’s actual payload volume can typically accommodate a single standard satellite weighing 8–10 tons for GTO (Geostationary Transfer Orbit). Only with high-density payloads like Starlink "blade" satellites—which use ion thrusters to drastically reduce fuel volume—can it achieve over 18 tons of payload capacity.

Thus, the Falcon Heavy’s stated "70 tons to LEO" refers to the total mass delivered to LEO, which includes the payload, the second stage, and additional second-stage fuel. Compared to the Falcon 9, the Falcon Heavy retains significantly more second-stage fuel during orbital insertion—potentially up to 40 tons more.

This explains why the Falcon Heavy’s actual payloads to date have not exceeded 10 tons. Beyond this threshold, neither the Falcon 9 nor Falcon Heavy can physically fit larger payloads within their fairings. The Falcon Heavy’s primary role is for deep-space missions, with most payloads ranging between 3–6 tons. The heaviest payload to date, a module for the Lunar Gateway, weighed around 10 tons.

In contrast, the **New Glenn** rocket, with its 7-meter diameter, far surpasses the Falcon Heavy in practically useful payload capacity for space missions—whether to LEO, GTO, or beyond. Similarly, China’s **CZ-10** (Long March 10) outperforms the Falcon Heavy in real-world payload capacity. The CZ-10 is a three-stage rocket; in its two-stage configuration with a CBC (Common Booster Core) setup, its fairing can exceed 25 meters in height, further enhancing its payload capabilities.
 
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