NASA & World Space Exploration...News, Views, Photos & videos
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Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
Keep in mind that Apollo-Soyuz happened after Apollo 11-17, which firmly established U.S. superiority in space exploration, and the U.S.-Soviet Detente.
Keep in mind that Apollo-Soyuz happened after Apollo 11-17, which firmly established U.S. superiority in space exploration, and the U.S.-Soviet Detente.
Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
It's not so simple as that. When Apollo Soyuz was being planned, the soviet union's own manned lunar program was ongoing, and had ambitious aims that would overshadow accomplishment of Apollo, including much larger landers that require 2 separate lunches to send to the moon, landing multiple spacecrafts on the moon at the same time, and facilities on the moon to allow cosmonauts to stay on the lunar surface for up to a month at a time. The US probably knew that.
Soviet manned lunar project wasn't cancelled until 1976. Ex post, it is easy to construct a narrative of US success with Apollo and soviet failure to match it. But at the time, it was far from clear that the Soviet Union won't succeed in trumping Apollo with a later, but much more ambitious program.
It's not so simple as that. When Apollo Soyuz was being planned, the soviet union's own manned lunar program was ongoing, and had ambitious aims that would overshadow accomplishment of Apollo, including much larger landers that require 2 separate lunches to send to the moon, landing multiple spacecrafts on the moon at the same time, and facilities on the moon to allow cosmonauts to stay on the lunar surface for up to a month at a time. The US probably knew that.
Soviet manned lunar project wasn't cancelled until 1976. Ex post, it is easy to construct a narrative of US success with Apollo and soviet failure to match it. But at the time, it was far from clear that the Soviet Union won't succeed in trumping Apollo with a later, but much more ambitious program.
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Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
The fact is, after the fact, we learned that most of the fears that a lot of the analysts and fear mongers of the time predicted were later proven wholly inaccurate after the Soviet Union fell and we were able to actually see the stuff that they had actually produced.
Now, that did not negate the shear numbers of the equipment they had in their hay day...or the brute force they used to make it. But the qualitative side suffered badly, and it was very prone to breakdown and bad reliability.
The Soviets had great plans...but none of them came to fruition...and it is likely that they would not have been able to bring them to fruition.
The fact is, after the fact, we learned that most of the fears that a lot of the analysts and fear mongers of the time predicted were later proven wholly inaccurate after the Soviet Union fell and we were able to actually see the stuff that they had actually produced.
Now, that did not negate the shear numbers of the equipment they had in their hay day...or the brute force they used to make it. But the qualitative side suffered badly, and it was very prone to breakdown and bad reliability.
Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
No, their manned lunar program was initially beset by design issues with their Saturn-5 equivalent, the N-1 rocket. But by 1974, most of the issues were overcome, and serial production of N-1 was begun to support an extensive lunar program. But soviet internal politics intervened and order came from the very top to not only terminate the program, but to destroy all vehicles, equipment and launchers completed or production, that is associated with the program, as well as scrap all the assembly lines and tooling to manufacture them.
So all the rockets on assembly line were broken up, and some of their shells and fuel tanks were remanufactured into mobile housing for the workers at the factory.
A very interesting thing then happened. The NK-33 engine soviets developed for the N-1 was extremely advanced, and had performance characteristics well in advance of any comparable American rocket then, or even now. A large batch of the engines were already manufactured when the order came down to stopped the manufacturing and destroy the engines already made. A few managers at the factory defied orders from the very top, and secretly stashed over a hundred completed rocket engines away in secret warehouses and hid this fact from soviet officials until the fall of the Soviet Union. In 1990s they approached NASA and Aerojet, and offered to sell NASA these spectacularly high performance engines which had been sitting in a warehouse gathering cobwebs for almost 20 years.
NASA was extremely impressed with these 20 year old engines, and eventually bought the whole lot for American use, and contracted with Aerojet to copy the engine for use when original lot runs out, and develop additional versions for other uses.
The soviets, contrary to Cold War and post Cold War stereotypes, were capable of producing some impressively advanced and high quality products in fields which received particular state support.
No, their manned lunar program was initially beset by design issues with their Saturn-5 equivalent, the N-1 rocket. But by 1974, most of the issues were overcome, and serial production of N-1 was begun to support an extensive lunar program. But soviet internal politics intervened and order came from the very top to not only terminate the program, but to destroy all vehicles, equipment and launchers completed or production, that is associated with the program, as well as scrap all the assembly lines and tooling to manufacture them.
So all the rockets on assembly line were broken up, and some of their shells and fuel tanks were remanufactured into mobile housing for the workers at the factory.
A very interesting thing then happened. The NK-33 engine soviets developed for the N-1 was extremely advanced, and had performance characteristics well in advance of any comparable American rocket then, or even now. A large batch of the engines were already manufactured when the order came down to stopped the manufacturing and destroy the engines already made. A few managers at the factory defied orders from the very top, and secretly stashed over a hundred completed rocket engines away in secret warehouses and hid this fact from soviet officials until the fall of the Soviet Union. In 1990s they approached NASA and Aerojet, and offered to sell NASA these spectacularly high performance engines which had been sitting in a warehouse gathering cobwebs for almost 20 years.
NASA was extremely impressed with these 20 year old engines, and eventually bought the whole lot for American use, and contracted with Aerojet to copy the engine for use when original lot runs out, and develop additional versions for other uses.
The soviets, contrary to Cold War and post Cold War stereotypes, were capable of producing some impressively advanced and high quality products in fields which received particular state support.
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Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
The closest they came was planning a mission in December of 1968 which had to be cancelled because they were not ready to go in their effort to beat the Apollo program, and when they lost in the flyby effort, they canceled the financial assistance and the program died on the vine.
As to the military equipment I was referring to, I'm was not talking about stereotypes, I was talking about verified reports from the field after the fact.
As to the later rocket engines you speak of...well, they never flew, and it has never been documented.
It is hearsay and it wants us to believe that Russian developers/scientists/manufacturers, etc...what would amount to many hundreds of people completed warehouses full of engines after being ordered to stop, at a time when a refusal of such orders would send one to the camps or worse, and then that they stored those engines in secret for a program that had been canceled and would never be used? And then that they sat in those warehouses for 20 years and were somehow maintained through the days during and after the fall when there was no money for it, and then after those 20 years NASA bought them?
Color me exceptionally skeptical. Sounds like an engineering urban legend...of which I have heard numerous in my day.
Do not get me wrong. I know the Soviets...and the Russians today...have some exceptional engineers and scientists in numerous fields. But in the end, they were also unable to execute in many fields as well, and the quality control was severely lacking in many others.
So, they were characterized by a few very brilliant achievements, a lot of very brute force systems that were in fact dangerous to their enemies but were also not too reliable, but for which they had a boatload of, and a generally failed system that in the end bankrupted them.
You mean their manned lunar program that never landed anyone on the moon, and never so much as performed a fly by? Those are the facts. The rest is conjecture at best.
The closest they came was planning a mission in December of 1968 which had to be cancelled because they were not ready to go in their effort to beat the Apollo program, and when they lost in the flyby effort, they canceled the financial assistance and the program died on the vine.
As to the military equipment I was referring to, I'm was not talking about stereotypes, I was talking about verified reports from the field after the fact.
As to the later rocket engines you speak of...well, they never flew, and it has never been documented.
It is hearsay and it wants us to believe that Russian developers/scientists/manufacturers, etc...what would amount to many hundreds of people completed warehouses full of engines after being ordered to stop, at a time when a refusal of such orders would send one to the camps or worse, and then that they stored those engines in secret for a program that had been canceled and would never be used? And then that they sat in those warehouses for 20 years and were somehow maintained through the days during and after the fall when there was no money for it, and then after those 20 years NASA bought them?
Color me exceptionally skeptical. Sounds like an engineering urban legend...of which I have heard numerous in my day.
Do not get me wrong. I know the Soviets...and the Russians today...have some exceptional engineers and scientists in numerous fields. But in the end, they were also unable to execute in many fields as well, and the quality control was severely lacking in many others.
So, they were characterized by a few very brilliant achievements, a lot of very brute force systems that were in fact dangerous to their enemies but were also not too reliable, but for which they had a boatload of, and a generally failed system that in the end bankrupted them.
Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
I know that the NK-33 was built. I know that they were decent engines for their time. I know some of them were left over.
However, I do not believe that over a hundred of them were secretly stashed away against orders and maintained for years in any type of good condition.
What apparently happened is that a few dozen were left in storage for decades and not all that well maintained.
NASA did not buy them. Of those that were left, ultimately Aerojet, a private company, got a good deal on something like three dozen of them to configure for cargo missions to the International Space Station. I believe they have used them for three missions to date, the last being this month...and they have contracts with NASA for something like total of 16 missions.
Aerojet had to do quite a bit of modifying to make them work for the mission and it was not without issue. They removed a lot of harnessing, had to add a lot of modern electornics, new propellants were used, they were modified for gimbal steering, and then qualifed for all of that...but ultimately they did work, and that is a good attribute to the original designers of those engines for sure.
Anyhow, this is off topic to China's Space Program. What China is doing is quite impressive in its own right and I expect we are gpoing to see a lot more of it. So let's get back on topic to the Chinese space program. If you would like to have a discussion about the Russian Program, start a thread in the Members Club Room aboiut the Russian Space Program, it's current status and history.
What am I verifying?
I know that the NK-33 was built. I know that they were decent engines for their time. I know some of them were left over.
However, I do not believe that over a hundred of them were secretly stashed away against orders and maintained for years in any type of good condition.
What apparently happened is that a few dozen were left in storage for decades and not all that well maintained.
NASA did not buy them. Of those that were left, ultimately Aerojet, a private company, got a good deal on something like three dozen of them to configure for cargo missions to the International Space Station. I believe they have used them for three missions to date, the last being this month...and they have contracts with NASA for something like total of 16 missions.
Aerojet had to do quite a bit of modifying to make them work for the mission and it was not without issue. They removed a lot of harnessing, had to add a lot of modern electornics, new propellants were used, they were modified for gimbal steering, and then qualifed for all of that...but ultimately they did work, and that is a good attribute to the original designers of those engines for sure.
Anyhow, this is off topic to China's Space Program. What China is doing is quite impressive in its own right and I expect we are gpoing to see a lot more of it. So let's get back on topic to the Chinese space program. If you would like to have a discussion about the Russian Program, start a thread in the Members Club Room aboiut the Russian Space Program, it's current status and history.
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Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
It says here that the N-1 uses the NK-15 on the first stage and the NK-15V on the second, with four consecutive launches which were never successful. So how different are the NK-15 to the NK-33?
It says here that the N-1 uses the NK-15 on the first stage and the NK-15V on the second, with four consecutive launches which were never successful. So how different are the NK-15 to the NK-33?
Re: China's Space Program, News & Views
NK-33 was a developed version of NK-15, intended for use on upgraded version N-1. It differs from the NK-15 in having simplified hydraulic system, simplifed interface with rocket body, slighly improved combustion chamber and better turbo pumps.
The relationship between NK-33 and NK-15 is probably closer then those between J-2 and J-2X
It says here that the N-1 uses the NK-15 on the first stage and the NK-15V on the second, with four consecutive launches which were never successful. So how different are the NK-15 to the NK-33?
NK-33 was a developed version of NK-15, intended for use on upgraded version N-1. It differs from the NK-15 in having simplified hydraulic system, simplifed interface with rocket body, slighly improved combustion chamber and better turbo pumps.
The relationship between NK-33 and NK-15 is probably closer then those between J-2 and J-2X