I understand. However, If the US is supporting this revisionist history..then wouldn't said history be taught in the US? But it is not.
Nanjing Massacre 75 years ago today
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I understand. However, If the US is supporting this revisionist history..then wouldn't said history be taught in the US? But it is not.
solarz
Brigadier
First of all, a necessary correction. "China" does not have a hatred of Japan, justified or not. Some Chinese *think* they hate Japan, but that is more a sign of immaturity than anything else. Notice how during the anti-Japan riots, Japanese cars were smashed, and drivers of Japanese cars were beaten? How many people smashed their own Japanese cameras, TVs, and laptops? The anti-Japan riots were obviously an excuse for a bunch of irresponsible people to take out their frustrations on other people.
As for Japan's "attitude", have you considered what China's "attitude" looks like to the Japanese and Americans? Everybody can play the cherry-picking game. We are always complaining about how Western media purposely slants their reports in an anti-China bias. Have you considered that the Chinese media does the same thing with Japan?
There is no permanent friend or enemy in international relations. All decisions have to be based on one overriding goal: the benefit of the state. A "sincere apology" from Japan does not benefit China in any concrete way. Refusing to learn from Japan is detrimental only to China itself.
Sorry, but I call absolute and total Bravo Sirra on this statement. The US does not in the least support any "revisionist" history of the Japanese in World War II.
It is true that the US and Japan are now allies, but that has been accomplished in spite of the Japanese failings and atrocities in World War II and in no way as some form of revision of it.
I went to public schools, my father fought the Japanese, my kids, all five of them, went to public schools here in America (and we traveled around while they grew up so that was in Texas, California, Utah, Ohio, Montana and Idaho), and my grandchildren now got to public schools.
I am avidly involved in blogging on political issues of the day and watch the news and op eds regularly.
I have never witnessed any watering down of, or revision of, what the Japanese did in World War II. To the contrary, it is derided and spoken ill of at every turn and how the US had to bleed rivers of blood itself in defeating them, ultimately having to use nuclear weapons to end it...and in so doing saving millions of more lives.
So, please, you may indeed find some Japanese participating in revisionism, but it is a tiny, very, very small minority. The vast majority of Japanese whom I have met oin my 57 years realize that their horrible actions under Imperial Japan caused untold suffering for so many other people and nations...and as a result, untold suffering for them when the allied powers ultimately got the upper hand...bombing, fire bombing, and nuclear bombing their cities, their infrastructure, and their entire country in order to put that form of government, that attitude, and those actions down. And it was put down hard with many, many years of occupation so it would not raise its ugly head again.
Sorry for the rant, but with a father who fought this tyranny and experienced it first hand, and an uncle who died in World War II, I will never countenance such statements that somehow the US is now "revisiing" it, or going along with it in any fashion shape or form. The American people would not allow it, and it simply is not happening.
It is true that the US doesn't actively teach the revised history, but neither does it actively condemn Japanese revisionism. Perhaps to say the US is "supporting" them is a bit over the line, I shall rephrase my previous statement to "Unfortunately, with the current situation as it is and the world continuing to fuel Japanese ego by not protesting their revisionist "history". I apologise for any offence caused to American members. As Edmund Burke stated; "when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." Needless to say, Japanese are not "bad men" but their attitude towards their war crimes is nothing less than unsatisfactory. And in these circumstances, the world has a duty to ensure that the proper attitude towards previous crimes is shown and maintained as it has been with Nazis.
Mr T
Senior Member
Some people would say the same applies to parts of Chinese history as taught in schools there.
Who gets to decide what the "proper attitude" is? This seems to be another way of saying that China should get to set Japanese education policy. When a Sino-Japanese panel proposed a joint textbook on how to deal with past Sino-Japanese conflict, neither Beijing nor Tokyo adopted its recommendations. That suggests that neither party was interested in compromise.
And to put it another way, how would Chinese react if some global spokesman said that they had to change how they taught their history? Or should countries that lose wars only be subject to scrutiny of how they teach history?
How is that relevant? I didn't eat Chinese education growing up, that doesn't apply to me whatsoever.
The fact that a panel was even introduced means that both wanted compromise except that neither could reach a satisfactory one. I believe I explicitly stated the world has a duty to maintain proper attitude. An example of the "proper attitude" is in the case of Germany, where Nazis are vilified and outright illegal while the Japanese imperial family enjoys near universal adoration in Japan and visiting shrines honouring war criminals is encouraged and even considered sacred (I would like you to find an example of a German politician honouring an SS officer, hint; you can't). Joseph Mengele was pursued all the way to South America while Shiro Ishii died a quiet death free from public scrutiny even though his crimes, as brutal as Mengele's, numbered far greater. A comparison of the fates of the leaders of the Axis powers also offers good insight into the differences between the world attitude towards Japan and Western Axis powers. Hitler committed suicide although he would have been executed regardless; Mussolini was executed and his body was hung upside down; Emperor Hirohito, who was directly responsible for the Nanjing massacre enjoyed a luxurious life after the war, with the endorsement of the US (seriously mods, you can't dispute this, MacArthur specifically avoided blaming Hirohito for anything).
No one is forcing Japan to do anything. The Chinese reaction towards Japanese attitude is exactly like the word implies; reactionary; it is simply a reaction to Japanese actions, which Japan determines herself. Japan, as instigator of the killings, history revisionism and refusal to show remorse can't expect her neighbours to simply forget her crimes without holding her accountable for at least some form acknowledgement of their deeds. A vague"oh yeah, the war happened, soz" just doesn't cut it. By the way, I hope you realise that both Korea's view the Japanese attitude towards showing remorse to be lacking. As the two nations that bore the brunt of Japanese Army savagery, I believe Korea and China's requests for apologies and remorse are valid and should not be dismissed as "immature, insecure, unreasonable, unjustified or extraordinary".
airsuperiority
Captain
Be noted, u can't force a group of people to think a certain way. That's why right wings exist, as do kkk, al Qaida, etc.. However the fact that a majority don't think a certain way usually is a better way or safer to say that's not a majority opinion, and the very same applies to the Japanese people: those That I know don't deny history. Instead they all acknowledge and believes history should be taught on.
Sadly on the contrary u have us the Chinese, with a significant population like urself, who formerly claimed its legit to hate. U can be justified to be angry, but never to hate. And guess what, these Chinese who hates gives the rest of us a very bad, stinking, disgracing name. they make us look very bad, and these nationalists contributr nothing but CNN headlines of "racist anti-Japanese protests in japan." are these people better than the Japanese right wings? They are no different, except one group is significantly larger and from china.
As china occupies more of international spotlight with each day, it's really time for us the people to learn to behave, as when the world watches us on, our stints can certainly leave a lasting bad impression for others. the following happened. back in the dats, My elementary schoolmates thought I was an aggressive person because of my fascinations with military stuffs. Later on in high school I met someone from china who said he would go fight for china if Taiwan declares independence. My buddy isn't impressed; he only thinks that guy is violent. We may understand the first person's thoughts, but to the outsiders u only scare them. Now apply that to how its related to china. A poll was done in Japan and, combined with 2 of my Japanese friends' explanation, that 70% of the peace-loving Japanese public were always scared of china in that they might get attacked. That's how we are seen by them. That's how most of the first worlds see us. That's 1/3 of the negative impressions towards china.
U have no idea how many times other fellow Chinese embarrasses ourselves. Often times many nationalists are unaware that their actions are so, and therefore only comes across as ethnocentric, egoistic, conceited, rude, discriminatory, hating, irrational..while the rest of the world and outside actors look on and watch this group spaz their own pants. How embarrassing.In return many human nature kicks in and people begin to associate that's how Chinese roll. Therefore that's another one third of all the negativity Chinese is associated with today - stereotypes by others. These nationalists make us look bad is by hatred thoughts and claiming that's how Chinese thinks. Give urself a pat on the back.
Those haters shouldn't think they r doing their country folks a favor. They are not.
And please dont consider nationalists patriots. haters ain't no patriot, as patriots don't hate. Real patriots are civilized, with good moral conduct and personal responsibility to self and society, and knows only by rational, non-sensational actions, in the benefits of countrymen and sacrificing self as second for the overall utility of the masses, to express their love for their nation and people. That's a real patriot, not those who screams hard-line foreign policies, hatred, then accuse others of unpatriotic for non-supportive to their BS.
If u want to do it properly, u should perform ur very best in public.live and lead by example. This is why and how the Japanese people earn the praises and rspect of others: their manners are great and uniform for most of the Japanese u will meet. It's laughable u take angry trolls online to base ur judgement of one of the largest population groups on this planet.
U call one who doesn't hate is emotional-less, but instead i call one who hates as too emotional and irrational and too sensationalist.
Nanjing happened for 60years ago and hatred continues like its yesterday. 9/11 happened 11 years ago and our American friends today had made much peace with it in their mind. This shows the conservative minds of our people. U may argue for a civilization of 5000years, 60 years is half a second ago, by for god's sake ur time is still 365 days a year, whether ur American or Chinese, so time passes the same for us all. U can claim it's different because there's someone who's responsible and it's a very small group, like the al Qaida and alredy punished, and I can say the group is roughly the same size and they were the top brasses or IJ, and they were either dead or tried already. Either way, there are absolutely no legitimate reasons to why hatred should ever be allowed
And just to remind everyone... Advocating hatred towards a particular group is hate speech, and I'm sure our wisemen of this forums would love to collect head trophies to the glass case in the hall of the banned
But you are saying that the world has a responsibility and are seeking to instruct us on how you feel it should be accomplished. So, if there is one soceity where mass murder and genocide took place and you indicate it is not relevant, but want the other, 75 years after to atone, then it is most certainly relevant. The same principle would have to apply to similar atrocities...where killing was done for killing sake...out of revenge and in order to wipe others out.
Certainly the Nazis have been villafied the world over. But Imperialsitic Japan has been too. Japan is no longer an Empior ruled by a Emperor who is considered to be "God," it is a representative Republic. There is no question of it ever becoming such an Empior again in the forseeable, just like there is no question of Germany taking up Nazism again.
Though, as a student of history, I have learned to never say never. Right now, the stigma of World War II and what they did still hangs thick in the air, as it should. But we do not know what 100 or 200 years will bring. We can only hope, and continue to teach history as it occurred.
And that applies to all, wherever such atrocities were made.
I would say, that in total war, when you have an active population worshipping their "god Emperor," or their "Race," and a ruler who incites God-like fervor, that in the end those wars to defend against their world-wide expansionism is waged as one people against another.
That is horrific..but also true. The Chinese were not waging such a war in World War II, they were defending themselves. Most of Europe, outside of Germany and Italy were similar. But particularly the German people and the Japanese people were. They had bought in to their leader's aims by a vast, vast majority. The allies ended up waging unrestricted warfare against them in order to defeat their armies, but also absolutely humble and defeat the people who supported such causes...and to, end the end save lives. Not o wipe them off the face of the earth or to exact unbridled revenge. And that is a huge difference.
Were those atrocities? Certainly if you lived in Dresden or Hiroshima you would have thught so. But, if you were leading a nation fighting the horror that Nazi German and Imperial Japan were, you had to do a horrid calculus. Do you fire bomb and atomic bomb a country ad kill a half a million, or do you invade it and know that many millions will die? We know in the case of Japan that would have been so as a result of what was witnessed by our forces on Okinawa, where tens of thosuands of civilians committed suicide along with the defeated armies there.
Japan and China would have been worse.
The US and its allies were willing to do so if they had to, to absolutely humble the nation...but they also sought wa way to do so without having millions of the Japanese die...and of course while sparing hunddreds of thousands of their own.
So, as one who had a father who was commanding and LCI about to invade China, and whose uncles were on vessels about to invade Japan, I believe the horrid arithemetic, as tragic as it was, saved lives in the end.
No such calculus can be applied to what happened in Nanjing, or in the death camps or other such incidents.
I pray God above that we are spared having to live through such horror again. If we are, and if our grandkids are spared it, it will be because we do teach what happened on both sides...and why.
...and now, getting back specifically to the topic of Nanjing, which is specifically what this thread is about. That is precisely why it must be remembered and taught accurately. So that the Chinese people never forget and are ready to defend themselves against any such horror (externally or internally), and that the Japanese whose grandfathers were a part of this never forget and understand precisely why their nation was humbled in such a dramatic fashion, and to the other nations who were involved or who witnessed it all.
Nanjing is a horrible icon of what crazed forces can do when unleashed with the idea that they are culutrurally and racially superior to others, and that those others can and should be viewed as "cattle," to do with as they please, and to exact whatever measure of revenge on they please...and who have a leader they revere as God who can do no wrong and whom they do not question. All morality can easily be lost in such scenarios...as it was in Nanjing, and so we should guard against those qualities wherever they may arise, and particularly amongst our own populations, whomever we may be. In the end, the best place to stop such notions is right where they attempt to take root.
solarz
Brigadier
In the end, the Japanese attitude toward the Nanjing Massacre is their problem. I would note that the world, and even mainstream Japan itself, including the Japanese Academia, affirms the veracity of the Nanjing Massacre. Even if the Denialists were to become far more popular in Japan than they are right now, they would only be shooting themselves in the foot.
Take this incident for example:
It should be clear that nobody outside Japan is going to buy their Denialist line. The more Denialist the Japanese become (and I'm not saying they're moving in that direction), the more shunned they would become on the international stage.
That's why I say this is Japan's problem, not ours.
By the way, I like the reaction of the Korean-American mayor:
No protests, no riots. Just a polite "thanks for coming, now get out!".
Take this incident for example:
It should be clear that nobody outside Japan is going to buy their Denialist line. The more Denialist the Japanese become (and I'm not saying they're moving in that direction), the more shunned they would become on the international stage.
That's why I say this is Japan's problem, not ours.
By the way, I like the reaction of the Korean-American mayor:
No protests, no riots. Just a polite "thanks for coming, now get out!".
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