Myths and Facts about historical Chinese swords and polearms vs. Media

vesicles said:

I think Ji came from Ge. Ji sort of evolved from Ge.

Click to expand...

True. Read through some of the entries in wikipedia, they did mentioned that the Chinese try to merge the Ge with the Ji and form the chinese helbert. However another entry in the wikipedia stated that the Ji actually are around since the Shang Dynasty, which was also around the same time the Ge came into being... thus it would only mean that these two weapons might have been developed parallelly...

The Ji most probably evolved from an normal axe while the Ge might evolve from some agricultural tool.

crobato said:

Myth No. 1

The kind of Kung Fu swordsmanship using Jians (straight swords) most often see in movies and Kung Fu tournaments and demonstrations, are fairly modern and is very unlikely used in ancient Chinese arms combat. So is the kind of straight, fencing Jian you often see. For practical purposes I like to call them Kung Fu jians.

Click to expand...

Do you have a source for this? What exactly is your definition of "Kung Fu jian"? I'm pretty sure straight swords existed and were widely used since the Spring & Autumn era.

Tai Chi Jian is very different from the Jian of the ancient dynasties.

Here is the best known example of a surviving ancient Jian.



Now here are images of Tai Chi jian.



The swords are not even close.

Here is a good recreation of how the Tang Dynasty Dao would look like. Yes, it would look almost like a Japanese sword, except that the blade is straight. The recreation lacks the ring pommel at the end of the end of the handle that's typical with many Chinese swords though. But you get the idea. In later dynasties, the dao would curve and become more of a sabre.

Basically I believe the difference between ancient dynasty swords or swords that will be use by soldiers in real battlefield (all the way down to WWII) as compare to kungfu sword (Taichi sword) was that the blade are normally thicker, slightly curved at the front for quick and fast drawing of the weapon and the blade is stiffer as compare to normal Taichi sword.

Sword unlike what many kungfu techniques had said that they are for piercing and stabbing, but I believe that the sword used by soldiers in ancient dynasties are mainly for hacking and slashing. Soldiers doesn't need to be extremely well trained in Taichi and other kungfu... they need to be able to be deploy in the battlefield quickly in Chinese context. Qin army was among the first to use conscripted soldiers... who basically do not really have extended training in martial art.

So what is more useful to farmers and other commoners when throw into battle? A weapon that is heavy enough and easy enough to use against opponents and what is easier than slashing and hacking your blade around blindly.

(edit: Normal TaiChi sword seemed too fragile and weak to be effectively used by day to day military movement and in those days when enemy wear heavy and powerful armour of small plates and thick leather, these sword are practically useless, unless the user is extremely well trained in martial art to be extremely accurate as he or she strike at the weakest point of their opponents (which is the neck, face and perhaps eyes))

rhino123 said:

Basically I believe the difference between ancient dynasty swords or swords that will be use by soldiers in real battlefield (all the way down to WWII) as compare to kungfu sword (Taichi sword) was that the blade are normally thicker, slightly curved at the front for quick and fast drawing of the weapon and the blade is stiffer as compare to normal Taichi sword.

Sword unlike what many kungfu techniques had said that they are for piercing and stabbing, but I believe that the sword used by soldiers in ancient dynasties are mainly for hacking and slashing. Soldiers doesn't need to be extremely well trained in Taichi and other kungfu... they need to be able to be deploy in the battlefield quickly in Chinese context. Qin army was among the first to use conscripted soldiers... who basically do not really have extended training in martial art.

So what is more useful to farmers and other commoners when throw into battle? A weapon that is heavy enough and easy enough to use against opponents and what is easier than slashing and hacking your blade around blindly.

Click to expand...

You basically described the so called Kung Fu broadsword. Although broadswords became part of the Kung Fu art, its original intention wasn't like that. They were made by counter Qing revolutionaries to train farmers and peasants as they were easier to use in slashing attacks compared to the Qing type sabre daos that require quite a bit more training to master. In the battlefield, the broadsword made quick chopwork of the Qing swordsman. Likewise, the Qing got the idea as well and used the same.

On the first paragraph, what you said about hacking and slashing is partly true...and false.

During easier periods and this also happened with the Middle East and Mediterranean, sword metallurgy wasn't good enough for hacking and slashing. The result of trying to do that would result in broken swords. Plus slashing is easy to parry away with a shield. At that time, swords are fairly short because of metallurgical limitations.

So what's the strongest point of the ancient sword? The tip. The thrusting attack is actually the most sturdiest attack and the one most likely to break through armor. Why? Because you have the entire length of the sword reinforcing the tip from top to bottom. Where as a slashing attack, you are more likely to break the sword.

So guess what. When it comes to slashing attack, the best weapon then would be a pole arm. Especially if the tip is lengthened so the whole blade reinforces the tip. Now you're looking at the design of the Ge, which is why this weapon is remarkably efficient for its time.

Swords became hack and slash the moment the metallurgy became good enough for this: the sanmei construction, folding and layering, use of carbon steel. But at this point, when it comes to hack and slash, the dao or single edged sword, proved to have the advantage over the Jian, whose use decreased except with officers and more seen to signify status. Instead of being used in war, the Jian increasing became decorative and used with exercising and training. The analogy today is the officer's pistol.

From the Han Dynasty onwards, swordsmanship in war becoming more dominated by dao and with two hands on foot, and single handed on cavalry. Also, with cavalry troops, dao is also preferred.

The relationship and transition of Jian and Dao is an essential part in the study of Chinese melee weapons.

It should be noted, some of the best surviving ancient Chinese dao are actually preserved in temples in Japan.

The "wushu" swords (both dao and jian) are obviously never meant for real use, never mind military use. Their flexibility allows more showy performances.

Real military grade swords are obviously going to be much sturdier.

I'm also dubious of the claim that "dao" was made in late Qing dynasty. If you look at ancient bronze coins, some of them are shaped like the "da dao" that we know from Kung Fu movies, and these coins date from pre-Qin eras!

crobato said:

You basically described the so called Kung Fu broadsword. Although broadswords became part of the Kung Fu art, its original intention wasn't like that. They were made by counter Qing revolutionaries to train farmers and peasants as they were easier to use in slashing attacks compared to the Qing type sabre daos that require quite a bit more training to master. In the battlefield, the broadsword made quick chopwork of the Qing swordsman. Likewise, the Qing got the idea as well and used the same.

Click to expand...

I always thought the Chinese broadsword were as an evolution of Dao after Mongols invaded China adapting it the curved Mongol swords rather than invented by counter revolutionaries of the Qing dynasty?

solarz said:

The "wushu" swords (both dao and jian) are obviously never meant for real use, never mind military use. Their flexibility allows more showy performances.

Real military grade swords are obviously going to be much sturdier.

I'm also dubious of the claim that "dao" was made in late Qing dynasty. If you look at ancient bronze coins, some of them are shaped like the "da dao" that we know from Kung Fu movies, and these coins date from pre-Qin eras!

Click to expand...

I never seen a bronze coin with the Dadao (broadsword) shape like you claim. Dadao would have been impossible to create metallurgically in the pre Qin eras.

Furthermore, there is no archeological evidence that Dadao existed, from remains to drawn pictures. China records and preserves its history quite well, and there's no evidence of dadao-broadswords in early periods. The daos are two handed, with long stick like handles, with long straight blades or curved at the end.

The whole image of Chinese swordmanship portrayed in media using broadswords and Tai Chi Jian is pretty wrong, when in fact, dynastic Chinese from Han to Ming fought with swords that are not dissimilar from their Japanese counterparts.

There is a scene in Red Cliff, I think it was Zhou Yu, who had this long, two handed straight dao which he used to chop the legs of the cavalry rider to take the horse down. (No actual harm on real animals during shooting btw). That's more or less, classic portrayal how such weapons Sung elite troops take down mounted riders, though such a portrayal are centuries too early in the Three Kingdoms era.

In4ser said:

I always thought the Chinese broadsword were as an evolution of Dao after Mongols invaded China adapting it the curved Mongol swords rather than invented by counter revolutionaries of the Qing dynasty?

Click to expand...

So called Mongol swords are sabres. They became known as Willow Leaf Daos in Chinese parlance. Because of the Mongols, this form of sword dominated from East to West. Though there aer many variations of it, you also see sabres quite common in media, such as in pirate movies. And remember, the official US Marine sword is actually a Turkish sabre (remember Tripoli, the first notable action of US Marines), and the sword is a commemoration of this action. Such swords are direct descendant of the Mongol sabre.

Turk and Mongol Sabres


US Marine sword


Willow Leaf Dao, official dao of the Qing Dynasty


What you see here is the Goosequill Dao. This happened on a later period after the Willow Leaf dao.



This is the Dadao variation.



The fancier sword with the flaring tip is called the Niuweidao or Ox Tail Dao, also another variation.



You can find more examples here, including the dadao, which you can remember in the latest Rambo movie. The dadao is a particularly modern invention, and quite nasty too.