Myanmar/Burma civil conflict

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
Such shortsightedness, good thing you aren't a decision maker. Doklam is only important strategically right now cause China has a imperial empire to the south west. Historically speaking, China's dangers were always from the north, if relations between China and Russia/post Russia states becomes tense in the future, you'll know how strategically valuable Outer Mongolia is.

Indian Ocean is overrated, after the ice melts further in this century, the northern passages are way more valuable than than the Malacca Straight.

The Indian Ocean is strategically important far beyond Malacca. Chinese interests extend to Bangledesh, Sri Lanka, and Pakistan, not to mention India itself. Access to commercial and naval ports is crucial to secure those interests now, but even moreso in the future.

And leaving aside the ridiculousness of military tension with Russia, which already has its hands full on the European side, you do understand that control of Mongolia would become a strategic concern in that case? Strategic priorities are not static, they change and evolve depending on the circumstances. Right now Mongolia is not on that list, and it would be extremely foolish for China to go and create problems where none exist. Do you think China has so few enemies that it needs to make more?
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
The Indian Ocean is strategically important far beyond Malacca. Chinese interests extend to Bangledesh, Sri Lanka, and Pakistan, not to mention India itself. Access to commercial and naval ports is crucial to secure those interests now, but even moreso in the future.

And leaving aside the ridiculousness of military tension with Russia, which already has its hands full on the European side, you do understand that control of Mongolia would become a strategic concern in that case? Strategic priorities are not static, they change and evolve depending on the circumstances. Right now Mongolia is not on that list, and it would be extremely foolish for China to go and create problems where none exist. Do you think China has so few enemies that it needs to make more?
I don't want to continue this off topic discussion which you started, previous to your post there was no discussion about annexation nor about Mongolia. I merely pointed out the strategic shortsightedness in your initial post in absence of any background info like time period etc.
China could annex Kachin and Shan provinces from Myanmar altogether, if it wanted, and there would probably not be too much resistance from the (somewhat) sinicized locals. But why bother? International coverage would be extremely bad, other neighbors would all get scared, and frankly there's not much worth the taking in those territories. Some timber, metals, minerals is all, and those commodities are easier to just import. Loads of criminals there too, many of whom were kicked out from Yunnan in the first place. You might as well talk about annexing Mongolia. It can be done, sure, but it's not worth it. Just developing the area to modern standards would cost more than it's worth.

Also, supporting the minorities in those regions is useful leverage against the central Burmese government (whomever that happens to be). Who can actually offer worthwhile gains, like access to the Indian Ocean.
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
I don't want to continue this off topic discussion which you started, previous to your post there was no discussion about annexation nor about Mongolia. I merely pointed out the strategic shortsightedness in your initial post in absence of any background info like time period etc.

I agree that this is very off-topic but I did not start it. I was replying to this post talking about China could take over Myanmar by explaining what a foolish idea that would be, similar to taking over Mongolia.
 

RedMetalSeadramon

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's much talk here about incorporating Myanmar, whether the whole or parts. I think fundamentally people here must understand that doing so will be a massive endeavor; it will take up the resources of the country, even one as great as China, for at least two generations or a minimum of 50 years. The main benefit is access to the Indian Ocean and the agricultural lands of the Irrawaddy River. Myanmar has a little under 60 million people, and they will resist incorporation to one degree or another. Is this a worthy objective while the country is dealing with other hostiles?

The suggestion that China should incorporate Sinicized border areas should be weighed through cost and benefit. Acquiring pieces of undeveloped mountains already with numerous independence factions is going to be a net economic loss. What benefit does it bring practically? Tin mined in Wa state and jade from Kochin already makes their way to China either way; what need is there to incorporate Wa state, turning its army hostile to China and spending money for its development?

There is also a need to keep the Myanmar central government functional, if not too powerful. The opposition consists of liberals and Christian separatists supported by the West. If China supports friendly armed groups to the point of collapsing the current government, the next one will certainly be hostile to it.

My suggestion is that no overt military action should be taken. No arms blockades, but no free weapons either. In the meanwhile, try and increase the Sinicization rate. This can be best done through education, specifically language.

For instance, in Wa State, both Mandarin and the local Wa language are taught in high school. However, the current Wa alphabet, developed by Christian missionaries, should be transitioned to Pinyin at the earliest convenience. China could facilitate this transition by allowing the issuance of a Chinese high school diploma upon successfully completing a standardized Chinese high school exam. The exam could be available in Simplified Chinese and Pinyin Wa. Additionally, the completion of this exam could grant various benefits, such as work permits, opportunities for university admission, residency, and more in China. This shift would likely steer education in Wa State towards Pinyin Wa, with a strong possibility of adopting entire curricula developed in Yunnan. The economic value associated with a Burmese diploma is considerably lower than that of a Chinese one, making the latter a more favorable choice for both students and the education system.

This is a very simple way of increasing influence, requiring no foreign activities and can be done entirely on the Chinese side. Its benefit would be as enormous as being able to read Japanese Kanji while in Japan or being able to read certain Chinese characters being from Japan. A simple method of bringing things closer to China.
 
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ironborn

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's much talk here about incorporating Myanmar, whether the whole or parts. I think fundamentally people here must understand that doing so will be a massive endeavor; it will take up the resources of the country, even one as great as China, for at least two generations or a minimum of 50 years. The main benefit is access to the Indian Ocean and the agricultural lands of the Irrawaddy River. Myanmar has a little under 60 million people, and they will resist incorporation to one degree or another. Is this a worthy objective while the country is dealing with other hostiles?

The suggestion that China should incorporate Sinicized border areas should be weighed through cost and benefit. Acquiring pieces of undeveloped mountains already with numerous independence factions is going to be a net economic loss. What benefit does it bring practically? Tin mined in Wa state and jade from Kochin already make their way to China either way; what need is there to incorporate Wa state, turning its army hostile to China and spending money for its development?

There is also a need to keep the Myanmar central government functional, if not too powerful. The opposition consists of liberals and Christian separatists supported by the West. If China supports friendly armed groups to the point of collapsing the current government, the next one will certainly be hostile to it.

My suggestion is that no overt military action should be taken. No arms blockades, but no free weapons either. In the meanwhile, try and increase the Sinicization rate. This can be best done through education, specifically language.

For instance, in Wa State, both Mandarin and the local Wa language are taught in high school. However, the current Wa alphabet, developed by Christian missionaries, should be transitioned to Pinyin at the earliest convenience. China could facilitate this transition by allowing the issuance of a Chinese high school diploma upon successfully completing a standardized Chinese high school exam. The exam could be available in Simplified Chinese and Pinyin Wa. Additionally, the completion of this exam could grant various benefits, such as work permits, opportunities for university admission, residency, and more in China. This shift would likely steer education in Wa State towards Pinyin Wa, with a strong possibility of adopting entire curricula developed in Yunnan. The economic value associated with a Burmese diploma is considerably lower than that of a Chinese one, making the latter a more favorable choice for both students and the education system.

This is a very simple way of increasing influence, requiring no foreign activities and can be done entirely on the Chinese side. Its benefit would be as enormous as being able to read Japanese Kanji while in Japan or being able to read certain Chinese characters being from Japan. A simple method of bringing things closer to China.
Myanmar children living near border with China already have the option for free schooling in China, been like that for a few years already. Here’s couple videos:


 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's much talk here about incorporating Myanmar, whether the whole or parts. I think fundamentally people here must understand that doing so will be a massive endeavor; it will take up the resources of the country, even one as great as China, for at least two generations or a minimum of 50 years. The main benefit is access to the Indian Ocean and the agricultural lands of the Irrawaddy River. Myanmar has a little under 60 million people, and they will resist incorporation to one degree or another. Is this a worthy objective while the country is dealing with other hostiles?

The suggestion that China should incorporate Sinicized border areas should be weighed through cost and benefit. Acquiring pieces of undeveloped mountains already with numerous independence factions is going to be a net economic loss. What benefit does it bring practically? Tin mined in Wa state and jade from Kochin already make their way to China either way; what need is there to incorporate Wa state, turning its army hostile to China and spending money for its development?

There is also a need to keep the Myanmar central government functional, if not too powerful. The opposition consists of liberals and Christian separatists supported by the West. If China supports friendly armed groups to the point of collapsing the current government, the next one will certainly be hostile to it.

My suggestion is that no overt military action should be taken. No arms blockades, but no free weapons either. In the meanwhile, try and increase the Sinicization rate. This can be best done through education, specifically language.

For instance, in Wa State, both Mandarin and the local Wa language are taught in high school. However, the current Wa alphabet, developed by Christian missionaries, should be transitioned to Pinyin at the earliest convenience. China could facilitate this transition by allowing the issuance of a Chinese high school diploma upon successfully completing a standardized Chinese high school exam. The exam could be available in Simplified Chinese and Pinyin Wa. Additionally, the completion of this exam could grant various benefits, such as work permits, opportunities for university admission, residency, and more in China. This shift would likely steer education in Wa State towards Pinyin Wa, with a strong possibility of adopting entire curricula developed in Yunnan. The economic value associated with a Burmese diploma is considerably lower than that of a Chinese one, making the latter a more favorable choice for both students and the education system.

This is a very simple way of increasing influence, requiring no foreign activities and can be done entirely on the Chinese side. Its benefit would be as enormous as being able to read Japanese Kanji while in Japan or being able to read certain Chinese characters being from Japan. A simple method of bringing things closer to China.


I don't think China will be "taking over" countries anytime soon. Not in the current international environment where US and allied empire hold 50%+ of world nominal GDP. This is an international system that is completely lopsided towards the west in terms of economic, military and cultural power.

So, China's primary goal for this entire century will be towards catching up the west in terms of GDP per capita, surpassing them if possible, maybe even outcompete them enough that they become poorer because of China.

Eventually though, China will have to also utilize enough proxies such as Russia, Middle East, Latin America to induce military and strategic crises that will end the economic prosperity of the west, cause military defeats and eventually collapse of the alliance.

Once that happens, the world will be a truly multipolar world where anything goes, anyone can takeover anyone if they have enough power. Mind you, this is how the world has always been. The last century was an anomaly caused by the extreme power of the west and unipolar moment.

When this change happens, if this change happens. Then China will have the opportunity to expand borders not just towards Myanmar, but maybe also other countries around it such as Japan, Korea and so on.

This change will be beneficial for China not just because of security, but also if China has a declinining population, adding population by taking over countries and making them citizens could be one way to stem population crisis.

Also another factor, alot of poorer countries will gladly become part of US right now because that will give them instant US citizenship and free entry into US. Places like Samoa and other pacific islands come to mind. This is due to the quality of life and extreme wealth people in the US have compared to poor countries. GDP per capita of 2000 vs 80K is a huge gap and most poor countries are like this.

So, if China is a extremely prosperous and rich country equal to the current west in the future, then many people in poorer countries might be glad to be part of China. And they might be even speaking Chinese as a second language by then just like people learn english as a source of career advancement. So, China will have to attain Economic, Military and Cultural power atleast in Asia and end Western dominance before it can start taking over countries in its periphery.

So, speculation about whether "taking over" will be costly or not is not applicable in the current international system and current Chinese power and wealth. Yes, right now its completely unthinkable.

But in an extremely long term scenario, it could be quite probable. Countries expand when their opponents are weak. If China has such an opportunity, China will surely expand. This is the nature of all countries and peoples.
 

Wrought

Junior Member
Registered Member
There's much talk here about incorporating Myanmar, whether the whole or parts. I think fundamentally people here must understand that doing so will be a massive endeavor; it will take up the resources of the country, even one as great as China, for at least two generations or a minimum of 50 years. The main benefit is access to the Indian Ocean and the agricultural lands of the Irrawaddy River. Myanmar has a little under 60 million people, and they will resist incorporation to one degree or another. Is this a worthy objective while the country is dealing with other hostiles?

The suggestion that China should incorporate Sinicized border areas should be weighed through cost and benefit. Acquiring pieces of undeveloped mountains already with numerous independence factions is going to be a net economic loss. What benefit does it bring practically? Tin mined in Wa state and jade from Kochin already make their way to China either way; what need is there to incorporate Wa state, turning its army hostile to China and spending money for its development?

There is also a need to keep the Myanmar central government functional, if not too powerful. The opposition consists of liberals and Christian separatists supported by the West. If China supports friendly armed groups to the point of collapsing the current government, the next one will certainly be hostile to it.

My suggestion is that no overt military action should be taken. No arms blockades, but no free weapons either. In the meanwhile, try and increase the Sinicization rate. This can be best done through education, specifically language.

For instance, in Wa State, both Mandarin and the local Wa language are taught in high school. However, the current Wa alphabet, developed by Christian missionaries, should be transitioned to Pinyin at the earliest convenience. China could facilitate this transition by allowing the issuance of a Chinese high school diploma upon successfully completing a standardized Chinese high school exam. The exam could be available in Simplified Chinese and Pinyin Wa. Additionally, the completion of this exam could grant various benefits, such as work permits, opportunities for university admission, residency, and more in China. This shift would likely steer education in Wa State towards Pinyin Wa, with a strong possibility of adopting entire curricula developed in Yunnan. The economic value associated with a Burmese diploma is considerably lower than that of a Chinese one, making the latter a more favorable choice for both students and the education system.

This is a very simple way of increasing influence, requiring no foreign activities and can be done entirely on the Chinese side. Its benefit would be as enormous as being able to read Japanese Kanji while in Japan or being able to read certain Chinese characters being from Japan. A simple method of bringing things closer to China.

Yes, this is pretty much what I was saying earlier. And I would further argue that Chinese interests are far better served by having a Burmese faction under its influence than having a tiny amount more territory. Minority tensions on the border can be exploited for leverage against the government in Naypyidaw, whereas seizing control directly would transfer the burden of dealing with all those tensions onto Beijing. Do people not see the headaches Beijing already deals with from ethnic border groups?

The current approach is very much the correct one, and I think people should spend less time playing videogames where you can just change the color on some land and make it yours. The real world is much more complicated.
 

coolgod

Colonel
Registered Member
The suggestion that China should incorporate Sinicized border areas should be weighed through cost and benefit. Acquiring pieces of undeveloped mountains already with numerous independence factions is going to be a net economic loss. What benefit does it bring practically? Tin mined in Wa state and jade from Kochin already makes their way to China either way; what need is there to incorporate Wa state, turning its army hostile to China and spending money for its development?
Replace northern Myanmar with Taiwan and your argument would also work. Semiconductor chips made by TSMC from mountainous Taiwan gets sold to PRC anyways, what need is there to incorporate ROC (Taiwan) which is infested with numerous independence factions?

BTW ROC still claims parts of norther Myanmar, PRC only gave those land away due to the presence of ROC troops, a legacy of the Chinese civil war. ;)
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Yes, this is pretty much what I was saying earlier. And I would further argue that Chinese interests are far better served by having a Burmese faction under its influence than having a tiny amount more territory. Minority tensions on the border can be exploited for leverage against the government in Naypyidaw, whereas seizing control directly would transfer the burden of dealing with all those tensions onto Beijing. Do people not see the headaches Beijing already deals with from ethnic border groups?

The current approach is very much the correct one, and I think people should spend less time playing videogames where you can just change the color on some land and make it yours. The real world is much more complicated.
You guys are basically advocating for China to interfere with other countries internal politics using Chinese Diaspora, this is totally against China's current foreign policy stance. Taking your logic a step further, we can justify all the border lands ceded by Qing dynasty using similar logic, e.g., Qing dynasty can exploit the Chinese population in Outer Manchuria against the government in St.Petersburg etc.

I'm not advocating China reclaim the land resided by Chinese people in Myanmar right now, but let's not pretending having Chinese diaspora living beside the Chinese border under warlords in an adhoc failed state is a good for China (the homeland of Chinese people).
 
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supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
There's much talk here about incorporating Myanmar, whether the whole or parts. I think fundamentally people here must understand that doing so will be a massive endeavor; it will take up the resources of the country, even one as great as China, for at least two generations or a minimum of 50 years. The main benefit is access to the Indian Ocean and the agricultural lands of the Irrawaddy River. Myanmar has a little under 60 million people, and they will resist incorporation to one degree or another. Is this a worthy objective while the country is dealing with other hostiles?

The suggestion that China should incorporate Sinicized border areas should be weighed through cost and benefit. Acquiring pieces of undeveloped mountains already with numerous independence factions is going to be a net economic loss. What benefit does it bring practically? Tin mined in Wa state and jade from Kochin already makes their way to China either way; what need is there to incorporate Wa state, turning its army hostile to China and spending money for its development?

There is also a need to keep the Myanmar central government functional, if not too powerful. The opposition consists of liberals and Christian separatists supported by the West. If China supports friendly armed groups to the point of collapsing the current government, the next one will certainly be hostile to it.

My suggestion is that no overt military action should be taken. No arms blockades, but no free weapons either. In the meanwhile, try and increase the Sinicization rate. This can be best done through education, specifically language.

For instance, in Wa State, both Mandarin and the local Wa language are taught in high school. However, the current Wa alphabet, developed by Christian missionaries, should be transitioned to Pinyin at the earliest convenience. China could facilitate this transition by allowing the issuance of a Chinese high school diploma upon successfully completing a standardized Chinese high school exam. The exam could be available in Simplified Chinese and Pinyin Wa. Additionally, the completion of this exam could grant various benefits, such as work permits, opportunities for university admission, residency, and more in China. This shift would likely steer education in Wa State towards Pinyin Wa, with a strong possibility of adopting entire curricula developed in Yunnan. The economic value associated with a Burmese diploma is considerably lower than that of a Chinese one, making the latter a more favorable choice for both students and the education system.

This is a very simple way of increasing influence, requiring no foreign activities and can be done entirely on the Chinese side. Its benefit would be as enormous as being able to read Japanese Kanji while in Japan or being able to read certain Chinese characters being from Japan. A simple method of bringing things closer to China.

This is already pretty much unofficially done.

I read a paper on the legacy of Khun Sa in the Shan State. Khun Sa was one of the top heroin producers of the 80’s. His father was Chinese and allegedly a former KMT soldier, his mother was a local villager. He built up somewhat of a Robin Hood legend, portraying himself in public as a freedom fighter for the Shan peoples, though he himself was more Chinese culturally. One of the side effects of Khun Sa’s former drug empire was that he spent some of his profits into building numerous Chinese schools in the tribal areas. Since he was a wealthy drug lord, the schools were the better ones in the area. The knock on effect was that the tribal people seeking better education would end up learning Chinese to attend these schools. The hope was that they could eventually attend higher education in Taiwan (it was the 80’s okay?!)

After his retirement/“surrender” and subsequent decline in influence, the other factions picked up the slack and now the of course the PRC has replaced the ROC as the destination of choice.
 
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