Movies in General

Plenty of racism in California. It's just more diverse and liberal.

AssassinsMace said:

Anyone watching Last Resort on US TV? It's about a US submarine Captain who questions and then refuses an order to fire nukes on Pakistan taking refuge on a South Pacific island and the crew declaring themselves a nuclear power state with the US government on their backs. So the last episode had a new wrinkle where they have a background story China invades Taiwan. In this age of Lost-type TV storytelling it could mean nothing but normalling you don't mention anything in script writing unless it's going to play in the story later. It's called forshadowing. The Russians already tried to steal submarine for some unknown reason. So is China going to invade this island later and play a role? Who knows.

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Nice idea, but it misses the many security layers of nuclear weapons. The minor nuclear powers on the territory of the Soviet Union could have acted likewise if they had not just physical, but technological control of the nukes.

The show makes tremedous leaps in the first place so I don't look at it to be realistic. For one a conspiracy like that with that many people involved would never be kept a secret and the world would know and the US would be losing geo-politically nuking a country for no good reason. They didn't even play up a Gulf of Tonkin-type incident to justify such an attack. So I don't know how they make it look no one but the Chinese have a problem with the US nuking Pakistan.

Hollywood shows are notorious for depicting orientals, especially Chinese, in a negative way that often turns into overt racism. I really struggle to come up with even a couple of strong, proud, positive oriental, never mind Chinese, characters in modern Hollywood films or TV shows.

I am talking about characters that orientals and Chinese can look up to, and think, gee, that is the kind of person I would like to be, and not some crude cringe-worthy stereotype.

I think (hope) that in 40, 50 years time, when the next generation looks back, they will be as embarrassed and appalled at this as people are today when you seen old shows and movies where they have white actors wearing back out to play black characters.

The latest episode in Last Resort is just another classic example of the view that America needs to be strong to keep the peace or else the evil Chinese will cause mischief if America isn't strong or united enough to deter them. For a show that wants to break the mold and radically shake up how Americans see themselves, it's telling that the writers fall back on the same tired, cliqued misconception about China and Russia. It's not because the writers lack the imagination to think of a China that is not out to screw over the US or cause trouble at every opportunity, it's that that idea is so entrenched that even creative and free-thinking types do not even think to question it.

At least Skyfall did not fall into this pattern, so I think this is a largely American affliction.

I was a little worried when I learnt that Skyfall will feature scenes in China, as I was worried they would pull another nonsensical 'peeping toms behind a two-way mirror' gaff, or set the Chinese up as some hapless bad guys, but mercifully, they just used some of the most striking new architecture for some stunning backdrops. But you must admit that something is seriously wrong when you go to see a film and end up being relieved that it did not trash China in some way.

Skyfall is a really good film, and I would definitely recommend you guys to go and watch it. It was for sure one of the best Bond films of all time, although I would only give it 8 out of 10 because I feel they did overplay the whole, evil super-genius card a little and some of the later scenes did stretch how much I was prepared to suspend reality to believe.

I am aware most of you guys would not have seen it yet, so I will not say too much in case I let slip any spoilers.

plawolf said:

Hollywood shows are notorious for depicting orientals, especially Chinese, in a negative way that often turns into overt racism. I really struggle to come up with even a couple of strong, proud, positive oriental, never mind Chinese, characters in modern Hollywood films or TV shows.

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Oh I can think of a few: Harry Kim from ST: Voyager, the Kwons from Lost, Glenn from The Walking Dead.

However, they all "happen" to be Koreans. I think we can all guess from *which* Korea...

I read during preproduction that Skyfall didn't have any location shoots in China. It seems including China was last minute simply as marketing to get Chinese to go watch it. So I wasn't expecting anything more than just China as a backdrop. I haven't seen it yet because they haven't release it in the US. But my extreme Republican friends are already attacking it for some unknown reason. I can't wait to watch it to see what radical interpretation offends them this time.

You really can't stop Hollywood from perpetuating negative stereotypes if they can make money from it. That's why there are lot in Hollywood who are upset at Chinese investment in Hollywood movies. Of course they hide behind undue influence over an artist's work. Like studios and other investors don't screw with a director's vision ever before? I hope this change in leadership in Beijing brings some changes in thinking because they don't know how to play the game over there. Hollywood's latest complaint is they think they have the right to control how a movie is released in China. Namely they didn't like how The Dark Knight Rises and Spider-Man opened on the same say. Hollywood is like the EU. They want Chinese money but they just don't want China getting anything out of it. The don't have to accept Chinese investment. They're not losing money by two movies opening at once. They're just not making more money than they would've and that's not a crime. Most likely they spent no money on advertising in China and it was up to the Chinese distributer. So they really can't complain when they didn't lose any money unless like a colonialist they think all Chinese money earned is theirs.

solarz said:

Oh I can think of a few: Harry Kim from ST: Voyager, the Kwons from Lost, Glenn from The Walking Dead.

However, they all "happen" to be Koreans. I think we can all guess from *which* Korea...

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Harry Kim was a classic example of a walking stereotype of what westerns thinks a good oriental should be like: nerdy, deferential, lacking in confidence, pretty much useless in a fight, and always the side-kick happy to let someone else take the lead.

I haven't watched more than a few episodes of Lost, so cannot speak for the Kwons, but Glenn is an absolute disgrace as a positive role model. He is pretty much a carbon copy of Harry Kim with all the same character flaws, and his idea of standing up for himself to a racial slur is to stress that is is Korean, not Chinese. *Slow clap*

I was pretty much thinking of these kind of cookie-cutter support characters when I stressed the part about the characters being role models orientals can look up to and aspire to model themselves on. I can only speak for myself, but I have no desire to emulate those two in any shape or form.

There are some underlying truths, as is the case with all stereotypes, but the fact that this is as good as an oriental character can hope to get in a Hollywood production is pretty telling and damning. I am sure a lot of blacks will quietly agree that there are many in their communities who would fit the stereotypical loud, blinged up wannabe black gangster; and many Jews may recognize an echo of some of their friends in some of the greedy, selfish jew stereotypes in some older films, but can you imagine the outrage if those groups are depicted only in such ways?

There are countless positive, strong, independent black characters to act as positive role models, and there are also countless kind, selfless and compassionate Jewish characters. Why would it be so unbelievable to have a few oriental characters who are confident, strong, stands up for themselves and still be oriental without loosing all cultural identity and being just an actor of oriental decent playing an all American character (Nikita)?

solarz said:

Oh I can think of a few: Harry Kim from ST: Voyager, the Kwons from Lost, Glenn from The Walking Dead.

However, they all happen to be Koreans. I think we can all guess from *which* Korea...

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Don't forget Hawaii 5 O but they're all Koreans playing Hawaiian/Chinese.

Star Trek is probably the worst because they are the most subtle and subversive. The only Asians in the future and in Starfleet are Koreans and Japanese. That franchise really perpetuates a Cold War Racial/national paradigm and that those apart of the Western block have to make the galaxy safe.

AssassinsMace said:

I read during preproduction that Skyfall didn't have any location shoots in China. It seems including China was last minute simply as marketing to get Chinese to go watch it. So I wasn't expecting anything more than just China as a backdrop. I haven't seen it yet because they haven't release it in the US. But my extreme Republican friends are already attacking it for some unknown reason. I can't wait to watch it to see what radical interpretation offends them this time.

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They are probably attacking it because it has no Americans in it. I mean, how dare the British do anything without the yanks there holding their hand?

You really can't stop Hollywood from perpetuating negative stereotypes if they can make money from it. That's why there are lot in Hollywood who are upset at Chinese investment in Hollywood movies. Of course they hide behind undue influence over an artist's work. Like studios and other investors don't screw with a director's vision ever before? I hope this change in leadership in Beijing brings some changes in thinking because they don't know how to play the game over there. Hollywood's latest complaint is they think they have the right to control how a movie is released in China. Namely they didn't like how The Dark Knight Rises and Spider-Man opened on the same say. Hollywood is like the EU. They want Chinese money but they just don't want China getting anything out of it. The don't have to accept Chinese investment. They're not losing money by two movies opening at once. They're just not making more money than they would've and that's not a crime. Most likely they spent no money on advertising in China and it was up to the Chinese distributer. So they really can't complain when they didn't lose any money unless like a colonialist they think all Chinese money earned is theirs.

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Well it's an open secret that America is massively racist against China, and not just at the government to government level. It's just the racism is so endemic and pervasive the vast majority of people do not realize what they take for granted as a common saying is actually pretty racist and offensive.

I have lost count of the number of times westerns have said to my face, with all sincerity that something isn't racist because it is targeted at Chinese specifically instead of all orientals.

But, I think more and more Chinese are learning to play Hollywood's game, and it is already having an impact today.

Some of you may remember the massive sissy fit some American bloggers were having because the producers had the audacity to cut the racist kitchen scene from Men in Black III in China. The arrogance is really quite breathtaking. The racist scene was left in all other versions, so it's not like that decision had any impact whatsoever on what those American bloggers and their racist buddies got to watch, but they were still enraged that the Chinese audience were spared the indignity of having to suffer through that.

The new Iron Man movie is said to feature China prominently in the story and is to have a positive Chinese character. No surprise that it is part financed by a Chinese company. It would be interesting to see how that goes, but I fear it may end up being a reverse MiBIII, with the positive Chinese scenes cut from the American version and replaced with some China bashing just to appease the bigots.

It's a Freudian look into their minds of how they want to see the world. Why are there so few Asians on crews of Star Trek? You see more outer space aliens than Asians on a Star Trek crew. The fact is it doesn't get viewers interested in seeing an Asian in a lead positive role in a country where Asians aren't significant in population thus affecting things politically. Then on top of that most roles go to Asian women because they don't represent a threat and are more a possession instead unlike Asian men. There's nothing they see they get from an Asian male.

It's a waste of time to expect Hollywood to change. Asians are behind a lot of other minorities that Hollywood will suck up to first. That's why I hope some major change happens in Beijing because that's the only way you're going to see those things happen.