Modern Main Battle Tanks ( MBT )

Hello do you think our next generation of tanks will be equipped with those medium caliber guns like the ones found in the early T14 concept? It could be handy against low flying aircrafts and also against other light targets.

Or even change the whole thing with some kind of MLRS system where small rovkets are fired for NLOS. Only very few infantry missiles have this capability (Israeli Spyker, French MMP), and they can't be fired by our tanks right now.

Tetrach said:

Hello do you think our next generation of tanks will be equipped with those medium caliber guns like the ones found in the early T14 concept? It could be handy against low flying aircrafts and also against other light targets

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Not likely. It’s very impractical. You already have a substantial main gun the other weapons are mostly defensive and meant to offer higher “Stored kills” as such a full sized medium caliber gun takes up to much space. There has been interest in lower velocity systems like the 25mm gun for the L3 M60A3 “Destroyer” but that’s actually a low velocity gun. 25x59mm originally developed for the XM307 not the full power 25x137mm

Tetrach said:

Or even change the whole thing with some kind of MLRS system where small rovkets are fired for NLOS. Only very few infantry missiles have this capability (Israeli Spyker, French MMP), and they can't be fired by our tanks right now.

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Some tanks can fire missiles from there guns and it seems like a ability on the rise but highly specialized.
the North Koreans to try and make up for the under ability of there tanks like to mount antitank and anti air missiles to there tanks but how effective that is is unknown. Besides I doubt they could even fire them under cover.
Spike NLOS is a significantly large missile 175 pounds as such it’s barely an infantry missile. MMP is much more man portable but it’s range is also less. It’s NLOS but a Spike will fly a lot farther. 25Km vs 5km. The range by the way, actually isn’t that impressive when you consider Javelin already goes to 4.7Km. What is critical for MMP is the guidance system that allows lock on after launch.

But why bother putting it on a tank? MMP has a range of about 4-5KM a 120mm Smooth bore tank can put a guided round out to 8KM. Spike NLOS okay but again limitations kick in. A MBT holds a lot more stores kills.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Not likely. It’s very impractical. You already have a substantial main gun the other weapons are mostly defensive and meant to offer higher “Stored kills” as such a full sized medium caliber gun takes up to much space. There has been interest in lower velocity systems like the 25mm gun for the L3 M60A3 “Destroyer” but that’s actually a low velocity gun. 25x59mm originally developed for the XM307 not the full power 25x137mm

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I've been more thinking about this kind of weaponry. It doesn't take that much place while giving additionnal fire power which can be used against low flying aicrafts or infantry. And that's a T-72, the space allowed for one of these guns for larger turrets like Leopard 2 Or M1.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Some tanks can fire missiles from there guns and it seems like a ability on the rise but highly specialized.
the North Koreans to try and make up for the under ability of there tanks like to mount antitank and anti air missiles to there tanks but how effective that is is unknown. Besides I doubt they could even fire them under cover.
Spike NLOS is a significantly large missile 175 pounds as such it’s barely an infantry missile. MMP is much more man portable but it’s range is also less. It’s NLOS but a Spike will fly a lot farther. 25Km vs 5km. The range by the way, actually isn’t that impressive when you consider Javelin already goes to 4.7Km. What is critical for MMP is the guidance system that allows lock on after launch.

But why bother putting it on a tank? MMP has a range of about 4-5KM a 120mm Smooth bore tank can put a guided round out to 8KM. Spike NLOS okay but again limitations kick in. A MBT holds a lot more stores kills.

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All today's tank fired missiles at laser guided or at least don't have an NLOS capability. For you the only way to adapt this to tank mounted would have to use something like the Spyke? As it's tank mounted there aren't any major limitations imo. I know that loitering munitions are quite light and still have significant range. Maybe adding a them would be a good idea?

Also the chineses have showed a weapon system with hydra-like rockets installed on a IFV turret.

Tetrach said:

I've been more thinking about this kind of weaponry. It doesn't take that much place while giving additionnal fire power which can be used against low flying aicrafts or infantry. And that's a T-72, the space allowed for one of these guns for larger turrets like Leopard 2 Or M1.

View attachment 54151

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Eternal Quest not enough DAAKA.

Okay 1) those are actually 20mm guns.

2) What could those guns destroy that couldn’t be covered by the weapons on the tank already including the main gun Or IFV/SHORAD?
In this case they were to be used as anti aircraft guns/Anti urban combat guns and the case of how far it went they dropped the left side one. Then never progressed beyond prototype. Slovakia dropped it like a bad habit.
Infantry already would be overmatched by the coax mg often a .30, the Commanders weapon often a .50 and high explosive rounds. Low flying aircraft again HE tank rounds or supporting vehicles. About the only justification for this modification is it’s a T72. In other words it was added to try and make up for the small amount of vertical travel for the main gun that came from the low mounting and small size of the tank.
or like the Slovaks ended up doing basically replacing the commanders 12.7mm with a 20mm wait I talked about doing something close with the 25mm.

Tetrach said:

All today's tank fired missiles at laser guided or at least don't have an NLOS capability. For you the only way to adapt this to tank mounted would have to use something like the Spyke? As it's tank mounted there aren't any major limitations imo. I know that loitering munitions are quite light and still have significant range. Maybe adding a them would be a good idea?

Also the chineses have showed a weapon system with hydra-like rockets installed on a IFV turret.

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Javelin is Infrared guided fire and forget no laser. More modern ATGM are multi mode. They could home on a laser or radar or IR.
The critical aspect to the Spike and MMP in this context is that ability to datalink from another asset to take over targeting. That’s new but given time will work it’s way to other systems.

Hydra like rockets have been mounted on pickup trucks.
A number of IFV have Missile launchers. Bradley as the Tow 2, BMP3 has Kornet, the HJ series on Chinese IFV, Spike missiles are to be used in Australian Boxer IFVs, German Pumas, Croatian AMV, and more in a similar manor.
Yet again many tanks already have ATGM fires from the main gun Lahat and Reflek being the big two in the game. I expect more to come down the line But more to extend the range of fire as most tank shells will do the same damage to a tank at the same ranges as most infantry ATGM.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Eternal Quest not enough DAAKA.

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Yes indeed. I've simply been looking for a more versatile tank design, at least at the very tactical level. For example I'm quite interested in the 60mm mortar system of the merkava. Just like an additional 20mm side gun, it can be handy I guess. What do you think of it?

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Eternal Quest not enough DAAKA.

Low flying aircraft again HE tank rounds or supporting vehicles.

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? Tbh if it was that effective then most of our SPAM would be equipped with 155mm artillery guns pointed in the air (and I do know that 76mm AD guns are already used by the italians and chineses). I think that a 30/20mm gun can be handy at least to scare the **** out those enemy choppers.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Hydra like rockets have been mounted on pickup trucks.
A number of IFV have Missile launchers. Bradley as the Tow 2, BMP3 has Kornet, the HJ series on Chinese IFV, Spike missiles are to be used in Australian Boxer IFVs, German Pumas, Croatian AMV, and more in a similar manor.
Yet again many tanks already have ATGM fires from the main gun Lahat and Reflek being the big two in the game. I expect more to come down the line But more to extend the range of fire as most tank shells will do the same damage to a tank at the same ranges as most infantry ATGM.

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For the NLOS issue I haven't really been looking for ATGMs. I thought that two major additional features could have been pods of small caliber rockets, which have in the range of 10km (US AV-LM-12/36 has a range of 12km). I think that it can really be effective against large infantry formations and the range makes the weapon quite satisfying.

Second is a loitering munition. I'm pretty sure we're going to get that in the next decade; italy and Russia already operates drones from their tanks.

Tetrach said:

Yes indeed. I've simply been looking for a more versatile tank design, at least at the very tactical level. For example I'm quite interested in the 60mm mortar system of the merkava

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Okay lest take this bit by bit.
the Merkava mortar. It’s not what it seems. It’s more used for smoke shells. It could be used for anti personnel but as you said it’s a
60mm that’s entry level for a mortar. Farther all tanks have mortars we just don’t think of them as a mortar. The smoke grenade launchers are mortars the key difference is it’s a breach loading under armor mortar.

Tetrach said:

Just like an additional 20mm side gun, it can be handy I guess. What do you think of it?

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again the side gun isn’t an additional gun it’s a replacement for the commander’s MG.

Tetrach said:

? Tbh if it was that effective then most of our SPAM would be equipped with 155mm artillery guns pointed in the air (and I do know that 76mm AD guns are already used by the italians and chineses). I think that a 30/20mm gun can be handy at least to scare the **** out those enemy choppers.

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That’s why there are SHORAD systems. Bolting on extra guns to a tank isn’t as effective as you might think the main aim is to scare the attacker off. There are actually very few weapons of a attack chopper that can kill a tank. Most damage them at best. Helicopter or fixed wing fired ATGM are the best at this but they easily out range the 20 or 30mm cannon. Attack choppers are built to take 20mm shells and stand off from attack.
This is why the shift to missiles more than guns in SHOrt Range Air Defence on the move.
A HE shell will rip a chopper apart if it can hit. Again the main aim though is to scare them off.

Tetrach said:

For the NLOS issue I haven't really been looking for ATGMs. I thought that two major additional features could have been pods of small caliber rockets, which have in the range of 10km (US AV-LM-12/36 has a range of 12km). I think that it can really be effective against large infantry formations and the range makes the weapon quite satisfying.

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Looks cool as all heck. Like something to take on Imperial AT-AT but is it practical? Not really.
The Sherman above was already a tall tank this made it taller. It limits the commanders range of view and ability to traverse the MG. It adds weight to the tank to which is an issue as is the added hight. The tank can’t hide hull down. It’s just not effective.

Tetrach said:

Second is a loitering munition. I'm pretty sure we're going to get that in the next decade; italy and Russia already operates drones from their tanks.

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Drones from tanks no issue but then why munitions? The tank could launch a drone like a quad rotor under cover. Watch the situation pick the targets then advance and attack.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Okay lest take this bit by bit.
the Merkava mortar. It’s not what it seems. It’s more used for smoke shells. It could be used for anti personnel but as you said it’s a
60mm that’s entry level for a mortar. Farther all tanks have mortars we just don’t think of them as a mortar. The smoke grenade launchers are mortars the key difference is it’s a breach loading under armor mortar.
again the side gun isn’t an additional gun it’s a replacement for the commander’s MG.


That’s why there are SHORAD systems. Bolting on extra guns to a tank isn’t as effective as you might think the main aim is to scare the attacker off. There are actually very few weapons of a attack chopper that can kill a tank. Most damage them at best. Helicopter or fixed wing fired ATGM are the best at this but they easily out range the 20 or 30mm cannon. Attack choppers are built to take 20mm shells and stand off from attack.
This is why the shift to missiles more than guns in SHOrt Range Air Defence on the move.
A HE shell will rip a chopper apart if it can hit. Again the main aim though is to scare them off.

View attachment 54153
Looks cool as all heck. Like something to take on Imperial AT-AT but is it practical? Not really.
The Sherman above was already a tall tank this made it taller. It limits the commanders range of view and ability to traverse the MG. It adds weight to the tank to which is an issue as is the added hight. The tank can’t hide hull down. It’s just not effective.

Drones from tanks no issue but then why munitions? The tank could launch a drone like a quad rotor under cover. Watch the situation pick the targets then advance and attack.

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Ok, so:

1) mortar mainly for smoke. I imagine having a larger caliber wouldnt change the situation ?
2)guns useless, SHORAD like the North koreans.

Now for the rockets; I was more looking for something like this:


Simply change the QN-201 rockets for larger hydra rockets with those 12km of range (probably pods of 4-5 to not be too cumbersome) .

For the drones, it would be way to difficult in my opinion to adapt a turret for a quad drone, you would have to hide it in the turret or somethin' like that I guess. A loitering munition (or a similar-shaped drone) would be much more practical imo.

May I ask you, if you have the opportunity to add one major external equipment (like in a pod) on a tank, what would it be?

Tetrach said:

Ok, so:

1) mortar mainly for smoke. I imagine having a larger caliber wouldnt change the situation ?

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not really. Adds more weight takes more space less room for conventional ammo.

2)guns useless,

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Extra guns. In that case the guns were slaved to the turret for movement the commanders MG can move independently but the 20mm on the T72M2 couldn’t they could traverse up and down more than the main gun but not really that effective.

SHORAD like the North koreans.

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North Korean tank

note all the rockets and guns on the roof these are to try and be more effective perhaps even buy time against there potential adversary who have air power the “NORK” lack but of limited actual practical use.
This is a SHORAD vehicle.

a South Korean K30 Biho. It has duel 30mm cannons a radar and a MANPADS. It’s a lighter vehicle smaller but more specialized these vehicles escort armored forces those 30mm guns can do a lot of damage but are best suited to infantry attack. The missiles are short range only 7km but for pop up drones or CAS attack by lighter aircraft that’s enough. The radar offers a sensor advantage that allows those weapons to work better. But it’s a short range system meant to be used as part of a ring of system shorad and MANPADS at the heart and then longer ranges of missile going out.

Now for the rockets; I was more looking for something like this:
View attachment 54155

Simply change the QN-201 rockets for larger hydra rockets with those 12km of range (probably pods of 4-5 to not be too cumbersome) .

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that vehicle the QN506 is China’s response to the Russian BMPT which is not meant for long range fire.
The goal being to have a weapons system that could put elevate the main guns on soviet style tanks and IFV in mountain or Urban terrain and could take the place of infantry in supporting MBT in said terrain.

The range of the rocket weapons comes in part from its launcher. The Hydra series rockets are meant to be fired from a attack helicopter or Fixed wing fighter. They can be fired from found launchers but at a cost of range. They become light anti tank/Anti barrier weapons. it can be mounted to a vehicle like a technical or a Utility vehicle like this JLTV prototype, it can also be added to a Shorad vehicles that could be built on tank hulls like the BMPT or QN506 or IFV and APC hulls. But it’s marginally effective as artillery weapons and have been used as a poor mans MLRS.

Tetrach said:

For the drones, it would be way to difficult in my opinion to adapt a turret for a quad drone, you would have to hide it in the turret or somethin' like that I guess. A loitering munition (or a similar-shaped drone) would be much more practical imo.

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That would depend on the drone...
Some are very tiny these days like this Black Hornet. But I’ll take the opportunity in part two.

Tetrach said:

May I ask you, if you have the opportunity to add one major external equipment (like in a pod) on a tank, what would it be?

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A cup holder...

I am of course kidding. And that is fictional, it was originally the Stealth tank from xXx State of the Union, that became a reused prop playing the Decepticon Brawl in Micheal Bay’s transformers. But is shows part of the reason I wouldn’t add all those things the tank is very tall and most of that weaponry is just a waste. Being so tall the tank can’t take a concealed position. It’s also very heavy.

Seriously though Most modern MBT makers are already adding a hard kill APS or looking at one. Next would be a camouflage system. Thermal camo sets prevent visual and reduce IR signature. A larger commanders weapon like a 14.5-25mm mg but that would be more a replacement than new equipment.

Drone was my first choice. Already the US Optionally manned fighting vehicle teams were looking to drones including a pod of Black hornets for CV90.
And KF41 was at last years AUSA with Raytheon partnership including there Coyote Counter UAS.
so adding a drone system isn’t out of the question. Complete with launcher and recovery system. A medium sized quad drone about the size of medium pizza could easily fit in the bustle rack of most MBT.

Another option would be a telescoping mast sight. This would be a alternative to a drone allowing the tank to spot from behind cover. Like a hull down or from behind a hill. Well still being small enough has not to give away the tank. Of course drone would be better.

Part of this also comes down to the tank Abrams or Merkava IV, Leopard 2A7 I think should have a pneumatic suspension. Abrams and Leopard should have a semiautomatic loader where the magazine is more sealed from the crew and the only door is a small one used to extract ammo delivered by conveyer system. Challanger 2 needs a new gun and ammunition system basically a new turret. But those are specific and more internal.

I think more tanks should be looking at a ATGM system to extend there range of fire. Or a system like Iron vision but that’s more internal.

K2 Black Panther adds a millimeter band radar system add that with a drone pod and a Iron vision style distributed camera system. And I think it would do a lot to improve the tank’s fire control and sensor suite.