Miscellaneous News

Many Chinese today have swallowed the myth of Japan as an inherently advanced civilization, a story deliberately promoted during the Meiji period to appeal to Han nationalists who never accepted the Manchu Qing as legitimate rulers. Tough luck. Had we not been tearing ourselves apart internally, and had that pivotal Ming general not opened the gates to let the Manchus march on Beijing unopposed, history might have taken a very different turn. But who knows.
Japan gets far more credit than it's due. By the 1930s, Japan essentially managed to become the military, industrial, and economic equal to Italy. Japan's development in today's terms was equivalent to China's in 2001. Its industry was heavily dependent on foreign technology, licensing, machinery, machine tools, and components. Its military and industrial capabilities were a fraction of that of the Germans, Americans, Soviets, and even British.

As for the Qing, they greatly expanded Chinese territory and served as a useful scapegoat for blaming China's weakness and backwardness during the 19th century. There is no reason to believe China would have fared any better under an alternative dynasty. Perhaps we would have just ended up with a smaller, more resource constrained and strategically vulnerable China without control over Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and possibly even Yunnan.
 
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Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
Japan gets far more credit than it's due. By the 1930s, Japan essentially managed to become the military, industrial, and economic equal to Italy. Japan's development in today's terms was equivalent to China in 2001. Its industry was heavily dependent on foreign technology, licensing, machinery, machine tools, and components. Its military and industrial capabilities were a fraction of that of the Germans, Americans, Soviets, and even British.

As for the Qing, they greatly expanded Chinese territory and served as a useful scapegoat for blaming China's weakness and backwardness during the 19th century. There is no reason to believe China would have fared any better under an alternative dynasty. Perhaps we would have just ended up with a smaller, more resource constrained and strategically vulnerable China without control over Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and possibly even Yunnan.
Fully agree.
 

supercat

Colonel
Didn't realise that The Onion News changed its name to Hudson Institute.

As though we need more evidence that China's economic policies work well.

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Breaking: unmistakable sign that Trump wants to escalate the Iran war and deploy ground troops.
Instead of rate cut, the Fed may hike the rate.
Japanese are competing with Indians to see who is the stupidest.
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Thecore

Junior Member
Registered Member
bunch of hypotheses being tested.
Or in layman's terms - just throwing shit at the wall.
Japan gets far more credit than it's due. By the 1930s, Japan essentially managed to become the military, industrial, and economic equal to Italy. Japan's development in today's terms was equivalent to China's in 2001. Its industry was heavily dependent on foreign technology, licensing, machinery, machine tools, and components. Its military and industrial capabilities were a fraction of that of the Germans, Americans, Soviets, and even British.

As for the Qing, they greatly expanded Chinese territory and served as a useful scapegoat for blaming China's weakness and backwardness during the 19th century. There is no reason to believe China would have fared any better under an alternative dynasty. Perhaps we would have just ended up with a smaller, more resource constrained and strategically vulnerable China without control over Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and possibly even Yunnan.
This will ruffle some feathers but Qianlong and Kangxi still undisputed for greatest Chinese emperors of all time.
 
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nemo

Junior Member
As for the Qing, they greatly expanded Chinese territory and served as a useful scapegoat for blaming China's weakness and backwardness during the 19th century. There is no reason to believe China would have fared any better under an alternative dynasty. Perhaps we would have just ended up with a smaller, more resource constrained and strategically vulnerable China without control over Tibet, Xinjiang, Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, and possibly even Yunnan.
Qin essentially stopped the development of firearms for 2 centuries, out of fear that they may be overthrown by the Hans. This alone is enough to refute your point that China would not be been better under an alternative dynasty.
 

Puss in Boots

Junior Member
Registered Member
Or in layman's terms - just throwing shit at the wall.

This will ruffle some feathers but Qianlong and Kangxi still undisputed for greatest Chinese emperors of all time.
The Qing Dynasty objectively hindered the development of Chinese technology and expanded the original territory. However, from the perspective of the Chinese people, allowing Chinese civilization to lag behind the times was an unacceptable failure! This was the lowest point of Chinese civilization since its inception, so in the evaluation of the Chinese people, the emperors of the Qing Dynasty would not receive a very high score. When it comes to historical status, it would undoubtedly be Qin Shi Huang, Emperor Taizong of Tang, and another candidate whom I will not reveal.
 
Qin essentially stopped the development of firearms for 2 centuries, out of fear that they may be overthrown by the Hans. This alone is enough to refute your point that China would not be been better under an alternative dynasty.
The gap between pre-industrial firearms and industrial firearms is several times greater than between cold weapons and pre-industrial firearms. Muskets and cannons wouldnt fare any better against 19th century industrial artillery than spears and bows.
 
The Qing Dynasty objectively hindered the development of Chinese technology and expanded the original territory. However, from the perspective of the Chinese people, allowing Chinese civilization to lag behind the times was an unacceptable failure! This was the lowest point of Chinese civilization since its inception, so in the evaluation of the Chinese people, the emperors of the Qing Dynasty would not receive a very high score. When it comes to historical status, it would undoubtedly be Qin Shi Huang, Emperor Taizong of Tang, and another candidate whom I will not reveal.
Unless an alternative to Qing would somehow stumble into the scientific method and the industrial revolution, it would not have mattered. What held back China ever since the Tang was Song-Ming rationalism. Late Ming and late Song were just as bad as late Qing. The merchants and corrupt officials of Song and Ming actively colluded to sabotage state capacity to enrich themselves, even collaborating with foreign threats. Hanjian was basically invented by the Song and the Ming. The only scenario in which China would be able to resist industrialized Europe was if a Ming successor dynasty completely purged all Chinese culutural developments post-Tang and reverted back to Tang era culture and philosophy.
 
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