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luminary

Senior Member
Registered Member
Temstar said:
This is spot on. For whatever reason (maybe it's to do with monotheism, I don't know) the west have a burning need to prove that neoliberal capitalism is the "one true way" forward for mankind. They believe they alone hold the secret to modernity.

Rise of China demonstrates that this is patiently false (in China, dunking on Fukuyama is now such a popular pass time that we have a name for people engaging in it: batman). This should not be taken as "there are two ways to achieve modernity - neoliberal capitalism and socialism with Chinese characteristics" but rather "there are N number of ways to achieve modernity, you just have to find the one best suited for your country".

China is not interested in spreading socialism with Chinese characteristics, in fact if a country comes to China asking to copy the system CPC would only reluctantly agree to provide tips as befitting of a confident superpower. CPC would rather no one has any insight into China's secret sauce. For example just look at Vietnam. They don't ask CPC for guidance and CPC is not providing any guidance, but Vietnam's economic reform is very nearly a carbon copy of China's version and that's all from CPV just watching and taking notes themselves.

This ideological freedom means China is free to engage with anyone, from Islamic Theocracy to Jewish ethnostate, from Juche Socialism to Laissez-faire capitalism. China comes to you in the name of common prosperity and that's a language that everyone understands no matter their ideology.

To quote Lao Zi “Nothing in the world is as soft and yielding as water. Yet for dissolving the hard and inflexible, nothing can surpass it. The soft overcomes the hard; the gentle overcomes the rigid.” US has never faced such a flexible and formless enemy before and doesn't know how to properly attack it, that's why they're panicking.
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I'm glad you brought it up. I've always been unnerved by the Christian fervor to proselytize and indoctrinate- sorry, "save" unbelievers by forcibly converting them. These ideas neatly tie in with the colonial mentality of "bringing white civilization to the barbaric jungles" of Asia, Americas and Africa. At the same time, their belief that "the natural state of man is to sin" provides the perfect excuse/rationalization for the atrocities they commit along the way. You can see in
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Even today, we see the Church's practices continue in the form of cultural genocide in Canada.

This universalism, this savior complex (tellingly, also known as the Christ complex) is practically codified in Christian holy texts. The West's insistence with being "the one true way" and "there is no alternative" (TINA) is so unthinking and dogmatic it feels to me impossible to be just mere hubris. This exceptionalism has somehow so deeply ingrained itself in their psyches it's become a fundamental part of their worldview. What do you think will happen when a nation of godless savages achieves common prosperity (for the West, a utopia considered to be unattainable) faster, more peacefully and morally than the West ever could? What happens when they are forced to acknowledge that their precious "civilization" is just another parasitic, meaningless culture among many? There will a mass mental breakdown on the societal level. Their understanding of humanity and themselves will be irreparably shattered. That is a truly existential threat.
 
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horse

horse

Colonel
Registered Member
luminary said:
I'm glad you brought it up. I've always been unnerved by the Christian fervor to proselytize and indoctrinate- sorry, "save" unbelievers by forcibly converting them. These ideas neatly tie in with the colonial mentality of "bringing white civilization to the barbaric jungles" of Asia, Americas and Africa. At the same time, their belief that "the natural state of man is to sin" provides the perfect excuse/rationalization for the atrocities they commit along the way. You can see in
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Even today, we see the Church's practices continue in the form of cultural genocide in Canada.

This universalism, this savior complex (tellingly, also known as the Christ complex) is practically codified in Christian holy texts. The West's insistence with being "the one true way" and "there is no alternative" (TINA) is so unthinking and dogmatic it feels to me impossible to be just mere hubris. This exceptionalism has somehow so deeply ingrained itself in their psyches it's become a fundamental part of their worldview. What do you think will happen when a nation of godless savages achieves common prosperity (for the West, a utopia considered to be unattainable) faster, more peacefully and morally than the West ever could? What happens when they are forced to acknowledge that their precious "civilization" is just another parasitic, meaningless culture among many? There will a mass mental breakdown on the societal level.
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I hear what you are saying, and agree completely.

In the end, it is no big deal.

People go broke all the time.

Then they get used to it.
 
L

luminary

Senior Member
Registered Member
horse said:
I hear what you are saying, and agree completely.

In the end, it is no big deal.

People go broke all the time.

Then they get used to it.
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I love your nonchalant replies.

To be fair, religion could be a symptom, or a cause, or neither. There are plenty of christian nations and societies that do not behave like that. This is just my broad observation, a trend I've seen.
 
M

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
taxiya said:
China object bringing in Taiwan issue in any discussion of the Russian Ukrainian conflict. At least, China has not talked about DNR and LNR in any circumstance so far. So we shouldn't assume China's opinion on these two regions.


Russia is not in the need to be saved yet. It is Ukraine and its western master need to be saved. During the Sino-Vietnamese conflict, Vietnam lived on USSR donation while China enjoys the western market for its economy. China wasn't in a hurry to make peace and dragged that conflict for more than 10 years. Today is similar where Russia can enjoy access to China's market while Ukraine lives on the west's blood fusion. China is not in any urgency in making peace. Actually, dragging for a few more years is better for China.


Once again, China don't need this justification as China has the right to sell anything to any sovereign state, regardless Ukrainian (US) refusal or acceptance. US sending weapon to Ukraine alone is enough justification for China to sell weapon to Russia. I think Wang Wenbin has made that statement indirectly by saying "US has no right to lecture China when US is streaming weapons to war party."


China making a proposal that disregards UN charter? Do you mean that China's peace proposal (yet to come) will officially force Ukraine to recognize DNR and LNR? Why do you think China would do such thing? Or why do you think anybody here is suggesting such thing? China's proposal does not need to mention any of these two. The proposal can be just cease fire, then start talking, and if goes well ends up like NK and SK where both parties claiming overlapped land. There is no need for China to get anything deeper than a cease fire and entangled.


As China isn't going to make such proposal as you suggested, there is nothing for anyone to cite. Besides, why do you care for what your enemy is going to say? You loose already if you care. Also, Russia is far from needing anybody's sacrifice, but if Russia is to collapse she worths China's sacrifice more than NK to China in 1950s. Think about it, if US controlled NK is a nightmare, a US puppet the size of Russia would be a death sentence to China. China is not going to let that happen, one way or another.
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If they're bothering with making a big proposal, surely it has to be a bit more than please stop fighting and come to China for negotiations? I guess we'll see soon enough.

I agree that Russia can't be allowed to fall. If China is expecting Russia to be unable to prevail against Ukraine armed by NATO, then now is the time to save them from themselves and stop fighting or be supplied by China. Russia bleeding dry and losing its international power for the sake of some destroyed towns in Ukraine that have sentimental value to them but not to China is not a good prospect

Eventine said:
Nationalism used to be a lot stronger in Europe, and ironically while we usually hear about nationalism in the context of "white nationalism" or "fascism," in fact it actually weakens the concept of "white" identity which, not surprisingly, was historically mainly pushed by the US. This is because "white" identity is the only unifying identity among people of European descent in America, as such it became their default variation of tribalism, as against the much deeper, "blood and soil" national identities in Europe.

With the end of World War 2, this changed. Since the US was dominant, it was free to promote its own brand of identity in Europe. The term "white" was replaced with "Western" for political purposes, but has remained basically equivalent. This is what Russian thinkers often call "Atlanticism" - the spread of a common identity between the US and the countries of Western Europe after World War 2, and its coming together as a powerful block of closely connected interests in the form of NATO, G-7, EU, etc. Add to this countries like Japan and South Korea, which are essentially honorary satellites of the Western world, and you have your current incumbent ruling faction of the world.

So while your example about France allying with the Turks against Germany make sense historically, it must be understood in the context of what happened after - ie the whole sale suppression of nationalism in Europe by the leaders of "Atlanticism" and its subsequent replacement by a common Western identity. This is also why Russia spends so much time and effort cultivating right-wing nationalist groups in Europe - because only through such groups can it hope to weaken the Western block. In short, European nationalism is a threat to "Atlanticism"; but European liberalism supports it.
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I agree atlanticsm is the problem. I think France and southern Europe in general are the least corrupted. And if China successfully makes peace in Europe, even many pro western people will have to admire that. US sanctions against China are weaker without European support
 
S

sheogorath

Major
Registered Member
Temstar said:
No, it's more correct to say both Russia and Ukraine both violated USSR sovereignty and declared independence from USSR, on this matter they are both guilty.
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This is often an overlooked fact. Most of the republics voted to remain within the USSR, but were overriden by that old drunkard Yeltsin who decided to split it anyway.

ACuriousPLAFan said:
It would be stupid for the Russian forces to attempt capturing an enemy airport deep inside enemy territory and far from any reliable ground support. The airport at Chisinau is totally indefensible if Modolva really goes all-in against Russia with their military.
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I do wonder if this will serve as an excuse for Russia to go "well, now Odessa is part of Russia too. And Tranistria too for that matter"
 
Sinnavuuty

Sinnavuuty

Senior Member
Registered Member
ACuriousPLAFan said:
It would be stupid for the Russian forces to attempt capturing an enemy airport deep inside enemy territory and far from any reliable ground support. The airport at Chisinau is totally indefensible if Modolva really goes all-in against Russia with their military.

If they go ahead with this, that means they learnt nothing from the Battle of Antonov Airport last year.
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I don't know exactly how many Russians there are in Transnistria, it seems to be around 2000, but Transnistria itself has a small army of 5,500 and 20,000 in reserve, the population of Transnistria itself, beyond what else can be called. They have some tanks, 18 T-64BV and some BMPs, but it is not known if they are operational.

For the Ukrainians to do something, it will have to be together with Moldova, which has practically no army, there are just over 7 thousand of them.

I believe that a Russian operation is possible, saturating the Odessa region with artillery (Black Sea Fleet) and using the VDV to land in Tiraspol.

It's the kind of operation that pays off, as the former 14th Army's arsenal is gigantic and is said to be 20,000 tons of ammunition and weapons.

Tiraspol is within range of Mi-171s, which can fly low or even use Moldova's airspace with Il-76s, as they have no air force.

The Russians, in my view, need two maneuvers: Tiraspol to ensure that Ukrainians do not enter there, making the Transnistria Army itself receive weapons, especially anti-tank missiles, rifles, vests and even PMCs and using the VDV against Moldova to that NATO troops do not enter there.

Few remember, but there are French military exercises in neighboring Romania. Leclerc was transferred to the region.

This would also allow the Russians to carry out future operations against Odessa.
 
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