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Major
Registered Member
That would make Tel Aviv real mad. Having two potentially-in-the-future nuclear-armed countries aiming at them would be even more nerve-wrecking than just one.

However, considering the "work performance" of Mossad WRT to Iranian scientists and engineers in the past, I would advice caution on this one. Especially if the US-KSA relations gets much worse than now, such that Washington DC decides that supporting Tel Aviv and Mossad would worth more of their effort than maintaining good relations with Riyadh.

We already know that Washington DC and Tel Aviv are absolutely certain to prevent any country in the Middle East (other than themselves) from having nuclear weapons, at any costs if necessary. Don't forget that Tel Aviv also have their own nuclear warheads as well, even though they would never admit that.


They don't have to.

KSA has purchased DF-3s and DF-21s from China in the past. China is also involved in the Goldern Wheel DF missile program with KSA. In 2021, it is also reported that Saudi Arabia was, with Chinese assistance, manufacturing solid fueled missiles of an undetermined type.

So in case Riyadh needs more, they can always ask from Beijing.

In case of absolute worsening of relations between Riyadh and Washington DC, having missiles that are capable of deterring US CSGs from getting anywhere close to the Middle East and able to cover US and NATO bases in Europe plus Diego Garcia would do the job.
It is also not in China's interest that more countries acquire nukes, unless they're so closely integrated with the PLA they can basically act as one army.

China has the no first use policy for a reason. It has set out to master conventional warfare using generational advantages in tech rather than trying to use nuclear blackmail, the latter of which is only a dangerous game of brinkmanship that usually leads to MAD deadlock.

Countries that are potential US targets having nukes will create a situation of nuclear blackmail rather than making these countries able to destroy large amounts of NATO invaders through Chinese weapon support. The former will likely fizzle out into nothing while the latter is of immense benefit to Beijing.

Both Iran and Saudi are difficult for China to deal with due to values difference, but it is far better if both nations acquire DF-21D and other assorted advanced conventional capability rather than make nukes.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
Saudi forums are already discussing how KSA can covertly acquire nuclear capabilities rapidly (i.e. 1-2 years) to prevent itself from being threatened by US nuclear blackmail. Logical partner would be Pakistan in this respect, although Chinese assistance might be sought on less sensitive areas (i.e. delivery assets). Multiple nuclear shields from Iran, Russia, Pakistan, and KSA, would supplement China and help push out american interference in the Asian battlespace.

Imaging having the knowledge of the entire world at your fingertips and still choosing to listen to the sound of one's own voice. That's the internet in a nutshell.

Saudi Arabia has a branch called the Strategic Missile Force which was established in 1986 in response to both Iran and Iraq. Historically it has operated the DF-3 and recently acquired DF-21 according to reports. CIA did all it could to ensure that missiles would be conventional but all it takes is an upgrade and a warhead.

The upgrade can be solved in no time since it's a Chinese missile. The warhead will come from Pakistan because it's an open secret that Saudis financed Pakistani nuclear program with the explicit intention of developing "Islamic nuclear sharing". There are two types of claims that are made regarding Saudi nuclear capabilities:
  • that Pakistani warheads are already in Saudi Arabia but are restricted by Pakistanis and overseen by American secret services.
  • that it takes merely days to transfer the warheads from Pakistan where they are kept separately overseen by Saudi secret services.
Those claims are obviously unverified gossip that is spread on purpose by both sides as preparation for the decisions when they need to be made quickly.

Why do you think the US pays so much attention to Pakistan? What makes it "unpredictable nuclear actor with risk of uncontrolled proliferation"? Learn to read between the lines and you will see that there is far more wisdom in every page of text than the words themselves.

Of course, it isn't just Saudi Arabia but all of the Middle East, which, if China can consolidate that region into China's camp, will be a humanitarian miracle given how the Americans kept setting them at each other's throats over the years.

What???

The tensions in the Middle East predate America by centuries. When Reagan said he didn't understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics he meant it like a kid who reads Harry Potter (the Bible) and wants to understand who the real world of adults works.

Current tensions emerged during the early Islamic era. At the core of it is the conflict between Iran representing the remainder of the ancient Iranian culture that has been almost wiped out by Islamic savages and Saudi Arabia representing the very political center of those savages. Iran might be Islamized today but there a vivid memory of the conquest and genocides still lingers. Early Islam was like the Nazi ideology and the Arabs were like the Mongols. It was only about 100 years later that the Abbasid revolution created the foundations for what we know as Islam today, possibly putting together the Qu'ran (which would be the third time Persians inspired an Abrahamic religion - after Judaism and Christianity. There was no "Golden Age of Islam" but a resurgence of Persia that had to work together against the oppressors with the former enemies - Roman Christians. It almost worked, but then came first the Gokturks and then the Mongols and destroyed everything.

Iranian culture has echoes of Persia, which itself imposed itself on a much older civilization predating it. It's cultural DNA, an atavism. You can't get rid of it just because you are Shia now. You will be in opposition because your nature forces you to.

There won't be a humanitarian miracle as long as Islam has the structure and position that it does. The Shias and the Sunnis don't hate each other because of religion. They hate each other because of Persia and Arabia. Does China know how to fix that? It doesn't because nobody knows. It's not about politics. It's about civilization.

Even Israel is just an echo of ancient Israel which was a client state of Persia. Israel literally fulfills the same role it did 2500 years ago and uses the same cultural foundation for it. Do you even know how Israel came to be and why? And I don't mean modern Israel but ancient Israel.

The Middle East has lost two entire civilizations while China is technically still on its first. We in Europe are not so removed from it both geographically and culturally as to delude ourselves that we are the center of the world even though we are China's historical peers. In fact German imperialism in the 19th century and the "Aryan" myth is nothing short of claiming the mantle of ancient Iran and partly because the British and the French imagined themselves to be the descendants of the Romans or Greeks. Nietzche wrote Also sprach Zarathustra not because has was an outsider but because it was the hottest thing at the time and fit in the dichotomy of rival powers mirroring the ancient world. Outside of Asia European imperialism in 19th century was driven by narratives of reclaiming the past. That's why it was so different from the earlier colonial stage which was purely mercantile.

Imagine Qin Shi Huangdi going to some place in China and seeing the Great Wall in place, a remnant of civilization that is as removed from his time as he is from us. That's what the founders of European civilization - the Greeks and Romans saw in places like Egypt or Babylon.

The Middle East is unique in world history. There's no precedent for it or its problems. The current conflicts are a mirror of the Bronze Age era. China will be as perplexed and frustrated by it as we were. The only solution is to make yourself more resistat or immune to it by shifting away from fossil fuels. You can help yourself but you can't help the Middle East unless it decides to help itself. And for that you need a motivator. I hope you remember what motivated both China and Europe to work together.

The road to wisdom lies in the knowledge of the past. You do not remember your ancestors because they know better than you. You do it because you can never know where you are going if you do not know where you are coming from.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
I found this comment by @Overbom back in April and I thought it was an interesting comment given the current Saudi actions regarding OPEC.

Of course, it isn't just Saudi Arabia but all of the Middle East, which, if China can consolidate that region into China's camp, will be a humanitarian miracle given how the Americans kept setting them at each other's throats over the years.
That comment was during the coup so there was still uncertainty. Now that the dust has settled, allow me to make a change:

US pressuring China from all sides. First Myanmar (succeeded), Kazakhstan (failed), Russia (succeeded, but mixed results), then Pakistan (seems to have failed succeeded), and now Kazakhstan(failed) again

China needs to go to the offensive to disrupt the enemy's tempo. Cambodia , Solomon Islands were good successes. Next stop should be Middle East, let's see what will come out of Xi's visit to Saudi Arabia
 

jwnz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Oh no... Xi Jinping moves his finger! That means the SeeSeePee must be on its last legs!!!

Oh no... Xi Jinping blinks! That means the SeeSeePee must be breaking apart!!!

Oh no... Xi Jinping breathes! That means the SeeSeePee must be about to collapse!!!


The level of desperation in the West must've skyrocketed to new heights by now.

He's giving a 2-hour-long speech for fvck's sake...
Relax, the tweet is just a satirical parody mocking Western MSM. If you actually watch the clip it has nothing to do with throat clearing or tea drinking.
 

Minm

Junior Member
Registered Member
That would make Tel Aviv real mad. Having two potentially-in-the-future nuclear-armed countries aiming at them would be even more nerve-wrecking than just one.

However, considering the "work performance" of Mossad WRT to Iranian scientists and engineers in the past, I would advice caution on this one. Especially if the US-KSA relations gets much worse than now, such that Washington DC decides that supporting Tel Aviv and Mossad would worth more of their effort than maintaining good relations with Riyadh.

We already know that Washington DC and Tel Aviv are absolutely certain to prevent any country in the Middle East (other than themselves) from having nuclear weapons, at any costs if necessary. Don't forget that Tel Aviv also have their own nuclear warheads as well, even though they would never admit that.
Unlike North Korea or Iran, Saudi Arabia doesn't have the industrial base to support a large nuclear program. They're also highly dependent on imports and are deeply integrated into the global economy, so they can't withstand sanctions. North Korea and Iran were already sanctioned, so more sanctions didn't make that much of a difference. Ideally, Saudi Arabia gets a NATO style agreement with Pakistan for nuclear sharing. Also, Pakistan would gain a new source of foreign income
 

Nobo

Junior Member
Registered Member
The tensions in the Middle East predate America by centuries. When Reagan said he didn't understand the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics he meant it like a kid who reads Harry Potter (the Bible) and wants to understand who the real world of adults works.
Sorry but I've got to disagree. As a student of history as well having a brutal history of 1971 of our own, this problem revolves around playing god cop bad cop game.
Current tensions emerged during the early Islamic era.
No. The tension during the early Islamic era was far less than either of emergence of Judaism or Christianity. It was spreading of it outside arab border that was problematic.
At the core of it is the conflict between Iran representing the remainder of the ancient Iranian culture that has been almost wiped out by Islamic savages and Saudi Arabia representing the very political center of those savages.
Did you hear this total bullshit from persians in quora? I've heard this from lots of persian nationalist wannabe . The so called ancient culture of persia was nothing more combination of dancing,singing,getting drunk, similar to "indian culture". But yes, Iranian culture managed some progress besides that.
This argument reminds of indians, who claim to have advanced ancient culture in past that had flying saucers. You can either have advanced culture or you can have fragile one based upon, art, dancing & singing that can be wiped off in matter of days by the "savages". You cant be both winner & victim at same time.
Iran might be Islamized today but there a vivid memory of the conquest and genocides still lingers.
Because the Iranians forgot what they did to furnish their own empire? I had arguments with quite a few of them about their own empire. They tend to give me same story of indians, their "empire" was of good & the others were of evil.I f you look at history of indian empires, they were always tussling with each other,until the islamist conquest happened. Does this make islamic conquest a good conquest? No. But the loosers lost. That's fact.
What you lost in a fight, have to be earned in a fight, no by speech, whining or crying.
Early Islam was like the Nazi ideology
Not even close. There was no early, modern,late islamist ideology. There was only ideology, which was islamist. In fact, the interesting thing is, It was Hitler's quote about islam that got me interested in it's history. islamist religion is the single most fundamentalist religion that ever walked on earth. Compared to that concrete, Christianity is wet mud , you will find those priests begging people to convert to Christianity, even paying them money, Yes, you read that right.

It was only about 100 years later that the Abbasid revolution created the foundations for what we know as Islam today, possibly putting together the Qu'ran (which would be the third time Persians inspired an Abrahamic religion - after Judaism and Christianity.
No, Koran was put together during the period of first four supreme leaders of islam after their prophet. Persians claim many things. All of the "main books" of islamist religion were put together by arabians. Perhapns there might be some others, i didnt find many that were put together by iranians.
Iranian culture has echoes of Persia, which itself imposed itself on a much older civilization predating it. It's cultural DNA, an atavism. You can't get rid of it just because you are Shia now.
No it doesn't. I have interacted with many of those persians, who claim to love persian culture, can't even name some of their poets. These are mostly future tiktok professional dancers wannabe following the american "culture".
There won't be a humanitarian miracle as long as Islam has the structure and position that it does.
No there won't be. That's why fundamentalist religions have always acted as counter weight against Western culture of "sharing is caring". Well, a bit too sharing, if you know what i mean.
There was no "Golden Age of Islam" but a resurgence of Persia
Absolutely wrong. The influence of persian culture in islamist religion is very much null. What it refers to is, the further territorial conquest. By that time, there was no persia.
The Shias and the Sunnis don't hate each other because of religion. They hate each other because of Persia and Arabia.
Not exactly. If that was the case then why do you suppose there are clash of faith in between two sects when they have no background from either country? In my country , which is by definition you can define as muslim country, overwhelming majority is sunni, but with a very sizable population of shia.
My country is unique, in sense that,despite living from far & wide from that region, we have those sects & their faith here, with zero connection from that region. Interesting, no?

It is fundamental human nature that when you win, you are winner. When you lose, you are victim & the other party is your oppressor & savager.
Do i like the islamist fundamentalists? No. But i have heck of respect for them. They are as religious as i am a patriot. Neither of us go by what "peoples like to do". Otherwise we would be p-rn star by now. I am a born Buddhist agnostic ,i live in a country of 90% muslims, no islamist ever tried to kill me, blow me with bombs, why is that they always want to kill the imported naughty americans, or euros zoophilians?

Human has been giving the bullshit story of humanity fairy tale since their birth. They want to resurrect the dinosaurs from extinction because their love for animals are overflowing. My message to these supposed oppressed & depressed future insta influencers would be, you lost buddy. Stop whining.

Human doesn't own anything. I am not the one who is saying it. Science says it.
Human race has to live by the law of Nature. And if it is savage, then it is. I don't need humanity, i need the truth. For that if i have to be savage, then i will be.
 
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