Miscellaneous News

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Conventionally, balance of power theory suggests the opposite, that ASEAN would rather band together more closely to counter both China and the Western alliance in the region. If I remember correctly, Waltz himself wrote that balance of power theory is only really apparent and applicable in a multipolar world order.

There are many lenses through which to analyze international relations, but one of the fundamentals of this field is that it is NOT an exact science and it is not possible to be predictive in any way, shape, or form. Analysts have spent the better part of the last century trying and failing.

ASEAN will do what it must to ensure its survival. Its actions will not necessarily be rational. Countries like Indonesia may buy Chinese equipment to bolster its own military security or it may decide the best security is to just not buy anything and stay out of attention. Maybe they would prefer to focus on economic rather than military security as a way to "balance" the changing dynamics of the region. And then you have to consider the people in charge, and their personal motivations for this decision. If they are corrupt, how corrupt?

The questions are few but the answers are infinite and there is no conclusive answer to any of them.

Source: Have a degree in IR.
ASEAN has consistently said that it wants stability, peace and development in the region. It specifically doesn't want escalatory and/or destabilising actions happening the region.
Middle East is a stark reminder on what happens when things spiral out of control.

This move by the US, Australia and UK is destabilizing AND escalatory targetting specifically China.

Maybe they would prefer to focus on economic rather than military security as a way to "balance" the changing dynamics of the region.
There is already a sub arm race in ASEAN to bolster their defences. I dont find credible the notion that ASEAN will just focus on economics. In fact it is the opposite, with tensions running high, ASEAN needs more defences in order to ensure that it doesn't end up another Middle East.


Let me summarise, IMO, the results of this recent move from ASEAN point of view:

1st Perception of the US as a destabilizing force has grown
2nd Yesterday, Australia was officially seen as a "neutral" country. From today, it is now seen as a "US-lieutenant" country
3rd Potential risk of a Middle East scenario happening in ASEAN has significantly increased.
4th More Chinese/Russian military sales
5th (ironically) Better diplomatic environment for China
6th Worse diplomatic environment for the US
7th Indonesia will certainly not be happy with Australia officially becoming a "US-lieutenant"

Now as I said, ASEAN probably wont even visibly react strongly. The important stuff will be hidden in small details which will be revealed in the following weeks-months. Unfortunately I dont think people here (myself included), have the time to read every paragraph from every diplomatic meeting that will happen in the near-future in ASEAN
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Conventionally, balance of power theory suggests the opposite, that ASEAN would rather band together more closely to counter both China and the Western alliance in the region. If I remember correctly, Waltz himself wrote that balance of power theory is only really apparent and applicable in a multipolar world order.

There are many lenses through which to analyze international relations, but one of the fundamentals of this field is that it is NOT an exact science and it is not possible to be predictive in any way, shape, or form. Analysts have spent the better part of the last century trying and failing.

ASEAN will do what it must to ensure its survival. Its actions will not necessarily be rational. Countries like Indonesia may buy Chinese equipment to bolster its own military security or it may decide the best security is to just not buy anything and stay out of attention. Maybe they would prefer to focus on economic rather than military security as a way to "balance" the changing dynamics of the region. And then you have to consider the people in charge, and their personal motivations for this decision. If they are corrupt, how corrupt?

The questions are few but the answers are infinite and there is no conclusive answer to any of them.

Source: Have a degree in IR.
Balance of power analyses are the best first approximation to any geopolitical analysis - that some apply it fallaciously is not to the theory's demerit. Your suggestion that the theory "predicts" that ASEAN would band together is one such fallacy: Namely, ignoring the costs of unifying (which necessarily entails abandoning some of your interests) in relation to the benefits gained by it (not much, since ASEAN doesn't amount to a hill of beans geopolitically even if it were perfectly united - so the gain to each member is minimal). Incidentally, it's also why Latin America doesn't band together against the US despite historical grievances. In general, the "complication" of unifying n independent entities scales quadratically with n. Properly applying balance of power analyses would take these factors into account.

To put it baldly, the failures of IR are not due to any inherent limitation in reasoning about countries; it's that this analysis is done by Americans. Their deep indoctrination and cultural idiosyncrasies irredeemably bias and damage any attempt at geopolitical analysis they make (with exceptions, of course).

There are further factors we can add to the picture in Southeast Asia beyond the obviously changing balance of power in China's favour:
First, and most importantly, China is the resident power in East and Southeast Asia. China is forever. In contrast, America is half a world away, and decisionmakers in SEA know full well that at any moment America can decide it's had enough and go home.

Secondly, ASEAN countries have had relations with China for millennia, much of which China was far more powerful relative to them than it is even today. Despite that power, the "Philippines" isn't named after a Chinese emperor Philip. It wasn't China that spread Catholicism and destroyed their cultures. They can easily extrapolate that they'll live very comfortably in a world where China is dominant so long as they don't cross a few very reasonable red lines.

So as not to make my analysis completely one-sided, I'll raise a point in the US's favour: its Freedom & Democracy load finds a willing audience in SEA, especially among the youth (young, dumb, you know how the rest goes). I don't think that has enough of an effect to change the fundamental trajectory, but it will undoubtedly introduce some friction.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
ASEAN has consistently said that it wants stability, peace and development in the region. It specifically doesn't want escalatory and/or destabilising actions happening the region.
Middle East is a stark reminder on what happens when things spiral out of control.

This move by the US, Australia and UK is destabilizing AND escalatory targetting specifically China.


There is already a sub arm race in ASEAN to bolster their defences. I dont find credible the notion that ASEAN will just focus on economics. In fact it is the opposite, with tensions running high, ASEAN needs more defences in order to ensure that it doesn't end up another Middle East.


Let me summarise, IMO, the results of this recent move from ASEAN point of view:

1st Perception of the US as a destabilizing force has grown
2nd Yesterday, Australia was officially seen as a "neutral" country. From today, it is now seen as a "US-lieutenant" country
3rd Potential risk of a Middle East scenario happening in ASEAN has significantly increased.
4th More Chinese/Russian military sales
5th (ironically) Better diplomatic environment for China
6th Worse diplomatic environment for the US
7th Indonesia will certainly not be happy with Australia officially becoming a "US-lieutenant"

Now as I said, ASEAN probably wont even visibly react strongly. The important stuff will be hidden in small details which will be revealed in the following weeks-months. Unfortunately I dont think people here (myself included), have the time to read every paragraph from every diplomatic meeting that will happen in the near-future in ASEAN
@Overbom bro as a person living in ASEAN region, what you said is so true, why would we allow people from the outside to claim our backyard, Its our HOOD man!!!! it should be on our terms and our rule, and we are getting there. Singapore is US secret agent now there is a change of heart, Indonesia the big dog in the region is getting stronger and know what its priority is which is the NEW GUINEA region where Australia is behind the major disturbance there. Bro the recent Australia action is a concern BUT its an annoyance cause their main target as always is INDONESIA, I want to know the viewpoint of our SDF Indonesian members @antonius123 bro I'm all ears.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
@Overbom bro as a person living in ASEAN region, what you said is so true, why would we allow people from the outside to claim our backyard, Its our HOOD man!!!! it should be on our terms and our rule, and we are getting there. Singapore is US secret agent now there is a change of heart, Indonesia the big dog in the region is getting stronger and know what its priority is which is the NEW GUINEA region where Australia is behind the major disturbance there. Bro the recent Australia action is a concern BUT its an annoyance cause their main target as always is INDONESIA, I want to know the viewpoint of our SDF Indonesian members @antonius123 bro I'm all ears.
What are Australia up to in New Guinea?
 

Phead128

Major
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Conventionally, balance of power theory suggests the opposite, that ASEAN would rather band together more closely to counter both China and the Western alliance in the region.
The impetus of banding together is usually an imminent existential threat (e.g. Communism existential threat underpinning the SEATO Alliance in Southeast Asia and NATO alliance in Europe). China and Western alliance do not represent an existential threat to ASEAN, you need a lot more than "but China and West is big and strong" to overcome petty nationalistic divisions and differences among ASEAN to truly work together and band together as an effective single unit.

The West too often superimposes it's own global hegemonic ambitions upon Chinese actions and expects other nations to do the same. The reality is ASEAN benefits far more from cooperation in economic and security with China than become frontline guinea pigs to be slaughtered to maintain Western hegemony.
 
Last edited:

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
What are Australia up to in New Guinea?
@B.I.B. bro a precedent in East Timor eerily similar to what is happening now in Irian Jaya.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Indonesia is preparing to deploy hundreds of soldiers to its eastern provinces in an effort to combat separatist ...
12 May 2021 · Uploaded by Al Jazeera English


Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!




11 May 2020 — More on: Papua New Guinea · Papua · Indonesia · Unrest, Conflict and War · 20th Century · Indigenous (Other Peoples) · Human Rights · World ...
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Imagine being President Xi Jinping right now. A couple of days after talking with Biden on cooperating in shared challenges and global issues:

It is revealed that the Taiwan name change proposal is being considered by the US.

More trade tariffs to be put against Chinese
products are also considered.

And today, we had a new cold war alliance forming up.

If this is not the biggest betrayal of Biden and his administration, then I dont know what it is. Xi (+ the whole Chinese Gov) should just delete the phone numbers of all US officials.

I ask you, is there any reason for any Chinese official to talk to a US official when it shown that their top leader is constantly mocking China? No reason at all. Disconnect the phone and let the US blindly navigate in the world. It is the biggest danger to yourself if you negotiate with a non-credible person who doesn't keep his words
 

9dashline

Captain
Registered Member
Imagine being President Xi Jinping right now. A couple of days after talking with Biden on cooperating in shared challenges and global issues:

It is revealed that the Taiwan name change proposal is being considered by the US.

More trade tariffs to be put against Chinese
products are also considered.

And today, we had a new cold war alliance forming up.

If this is not the biggest betrayal of Biden and his administration, then I dont know what it is. Xi (+ the whole Chinese Gov) should just delete the phone numbers of all US officials.

I ask you, is there any reason for any Chinese official to talk to a US official when it shown that their top leader is constantly mocking China? No reason at all. Disconnect the phone and let the US blindly navigate in the world. It is the biggest danger to yourself if you negotiate with a non-credible person who doesn't keep his words

After 2008, the US was always going to stab China in the back... its what it does, and its in the DNA, fabric and bones of the nation...

What I'm curious about is what Biden asked of Xi... the Chinese should upload the voice recording online for everyone to hear....
 
Top