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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Lets do it, but it wont last long.
Just like socialism.
Stop pretending that most people have any chance of negotiation or a choice. Get out of your bubble. It's called monopoly.
Every country including capitalist nations have anti-monopoly measures. You scenario is when a person who either had the idea but not the capital to explore it and a person whose crops were ruined needed and agreed to a loan with interest. Well, that is a choice and the loaner has a choice too. The loaner can say no if he doesn't feel like it's worth his time, but the loan-taker and loaner both agreed. If you feel like you are being exploited, you can take the loan elsewhere, or file for bankruptcy and try to start over. Either way, the existence and willingness of the loaner is a choice for the loan-taker; nothing is forced on him.
Yes it says "work together". Capitalists do not work together with employees. They just extract value from them. The miner and the mine owner are "cooperating". LOL
They are cooperating and working together, because if the miner doesn't like it, he can leave and find employment elsewhere, or start his own business. Nobody owes him anything more than what he can bargain for with his own leverage.
Go on, steroids got in game of gymnastics.
What?
You deny to understand that the whole thing is up to politics and semantics. But it seems you deny to understand what politics really means.
You deny to understand that people are not owed things they cannot earn.
Typical American-breed mutant lol, its fun bulling adhominem.
You just called me a "mutant" while I made no personal insults against you and then you accused me to making an ad hominem towards you? Is this socialist humor?
You are humiliating yourself, people are watching.
This is not an answer to the line you quoted; this is an escape because you cannot answer at all.
Better than your beloved homeland, USA
USA is not my homeland; it is China.

Cuba's life expectancy is comparable to America but lower than capitalist Japan. Cuba might have a high literacy rate but without capital, it is unable to put it to use, which is why technology is poor in Cuba. This shows that Cubans have good potential but are hampered in truly growing and exploiting them by its socialist failings.
Love and wishes
I like substance, not empty warm feelings which are the only things socialism is capable of.

You are talking about the strongest country vis-à-vis the small countries... Venezuela Cuba and even Iran and many other small nations that they already smashed over decades....

Regardless of whatever system they are adopting or how successful they are, size matters, it is not realistic to expect them can fight back the bully as big and powerful as the USA -- can't blame socialism or whatever -ism -- more over ganging together with other NATO members to bully them.
These small nations cannot compare with similarly sized capitalist nations either. Socialism doesn't work unless you severely warp it into something that is arguably unrecognizable from its original form like China did.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I didn't go into details because it's a bloody complex topic.

The quick and dirty of it is that the CPC is a 90 million organization drawn from the the entire population of China. Membership is open to the public, you just need to have a good academic record and the motivation to sit through political lectures.

Once part of the CPC, you can climb the ranks to leadership. It's not easy, but the system will allow anyone of any background to succeed if they have the skills and put in the hard work.

In other words, the CPC leadership is composed of the best and brightest from all segments of the population, their it does not represent any particular interest group.

The Chinese leadership also rules through active consultation. New policies are implemented on a regional level and local feedback is taken into consideration before the policy can be implemented nation wide.

The Chinese government runs countless number of surveys to understand the needs of the people in order to formulate their policies.

That is how the Chinese people exert control over their economy.
That all sounds good to me and I like the system very much, but you just offered a description of the system rather than an explanation for how the people in China exert more control over their economy than what is typical in a Western capitalist society. Those societies get their representatives through democratic voting and conduct surveys to understand public opinion as well.
Because we're not arguing about the socialist nature of China in 1949! From 1949 to 1978 China was socialist, bordering on communist. However, that system, even though it made people equal, had other flaws. Therefore Deng decided to transition China into capitalism.
I am. It's the long term trend of a country that was extremely socialist/communist turning into a country that is much more free market and less socialistic/communistic than before and that's what bought the success. This is the long term trend.
In the 1990s and 2000s, China was very capitalist. From 2010 onwards China began transitioning back into Socialism.
Compared to the long term trend, this is a bump in the road. Also, it cannot be established that China is becoming more socialist in this time period simply because there are more regulations on its economy, which can be seen all over the world. You have argued that pointing out something as a commonality between China and capitalist nations does not mean that it is not socialist but once again, it certainly cannot be used as evidence that it is socialist. China's improvements that you have pointed out are most accurately described as common improvements made to all advancing societies. Aside from those things including the most impressive poverty alleviation, Chinese society and its unquenchable lust for wealth leading to the unprecedented rate of the rising private wealthy class are a clear movement towards free market and capitalism that is kept under control by the state to ensure that they can rise and make massive contributions but don't take over national interest. That is the beauty of the unique Chinese system that is neither too much socialist nor too much capitalist.
No, only that they use socialist policies to achieve that greater social equality.

Again, Socialism and Capitalism is a spectrum. You can improve your social equality with some socialist policies while remaining on the capitalist side of the spectrum.

Whether or not an action is socialist is clearly defined. If the action is due to state regulation with the intent of protecting the interests of the working class, then it is socialist.
So you say that China is socialist, then you say that it's a spectrum as no one is fully socialist or capitalist. In this case, you cannot just say that China is socialist, especially because you've pointed out that there are countries that call themselves capitalist out there that are more socialist than China. To rephrase that, you are saying that China is more capitalist than some capitalist countries. Given that statement, one can certainly not say that China is just socialist.

I agree with your spectrum very much and my main divergence from you is that I believe that China has moved so far away from pure socialism on that spectrum that socialism is no longer an accurate tag; of course, neither is capitalism. It should be called China-ism or something much more clever. I agree with China's system; I think it is the best in the world, but I don't care for the inaccurate title because it gives credit to something that has not earned it. China deserves the credit, not Marx or other early founders of the socialist model.
 
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2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
@manqiangrexue I'm truly sorry for the ad-hominem, i went chest-thumping because of your provocative and ad-hominem (words about comprehension, failed english, and funny provocative statements like Cuba doing embargo to USA, even the latest "the socialist humour"). Again sorry for the attack. But we have to keep the discussion in the right levels. Even China nowdays cannot hurt USA with an embargo without going down with them. So calling out DPRK,Venezuela,Cuba to hurt by embargoes the United States, it's pure provocation of the discussion. You dropped the level to the lowest i think :)

Something we need to understand. There's no bible of Socialism. Even Marx, never wrote about Socialist economics. He exposed the flaws of Capitalism. At the last analysis, he set the foundations of a "list of things to not do", to avoid the contradictions and defficiences of Capitalism. After this, the whole thing is going like trial and error, like any other science. If you take time, 2-3 noons to read the first 200 pages of Das Kapital, you will understand what I'm talking about. The whole thing is very complex, when we get down to the deep meaning of value, the wage calculation, the nature of products becoming commodities, the nature of money itself etc. Marx wrtitings are of course more delicate and enjoyable to read than mine poor comprehension and English :)
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
@manqiangrexue I'm truly sorry for the ad-hominem, i went chest-thumping because of your provocative and ad-hominem (words about comprehension, failed english, and funny provocative statements like Cuba doing embargo to USA, even the latest "the socialist humour").
I made no ad hominem against you. Pointing out your failures to understand the English words that you wish to define (cooperate) and the weakness of every socialist nation is just fact. They are no ad hominem and once again, you used a term you did not understand. Calling someone a mutant is an ad hominem and a desperate nonsensical one at that.
Again sorry for the attack. But we have to keep the discussion in the right levels. Even China nowdays cannot hurt USA with an embargo without going down with them. So calling out DPRK,Venezuela,Cuba to hurt by embargoes the United States, it's pure provocation of the discussion. You dropped the level to the lowest i think :)
No, that is a higher level of thinking than you. These countries are all weaker than capitalist nations of comparable size. Socialism can embargo capitalism and turn the world around if it were strong enough to catch on. In that case, the dominant countries in the world would be socialist and the few weak capitalist hold out nations can be embargoed. But instead, socialism is weak and broken. Countries that dare try it end up weak and failed; it cannot spread and thus it finds itself at a severe weakness against the capitalist world today. Your thinking is limited to the current situation of what little places like Cuba could do to the US now, but the scope is much larger than that. Socialism could take over the world if it worked better than capitalism; it could be on even terms with many socialist countries against many capitalist countries both sides being peer to each other if it worked about as well as capitalism. But the situation is neither; socialist countries are small, weak, and few; they are bullied by the capitalist world because they chose a system that is weak, defunct, and thus unable to spread.
Something we need to understand. There's no bible of Socialism. Even Marx, never wrote about Socialist economics. He exposed the flaws of Capitalism. At the last analysis, he set the foundations of a "list of things to not do", to avoid the contradictions and defficiences of Capitalism. After this, the whole thing is going like trial and error, like any other science. If you take time, 2-3 noons to read the first 200 pages of Das Kapital, you will understand what I'm talking about. The whole thing is very complex, when we get down to the deep meaning of value, the wage calculation, the nature of products becoming commodities, the nature of money itself etc. Marx wrtitings are of course more delicate and enjoyable to read than mine poor comprehension and English :)
Well, to be given credit for something, you need to actually formulate it. If Marx's writings are just about the flaws of capitalism (which I joyfully observe in the countries that antagonize China), and that there needs to be trial and error to find the perfect system, his idea is too vague to be credited. Everybody knows perfection comes from trial and error; it is not his concept. China built an excellent system for itself that is neither too capitalistic nor too socialistic and it is continuously evolving from trial and error. All credit goes to China. China may choose to call it socialist because of how China started and because there is no pre-existing definition for China's newly invented system, but the fact is, even on a spectrum of socialist and capitalist policies, China no longer stands sufficiently at the side of socialism for it to be accurately called that and that is true even when compared to some self-declared capitalist countries.
 
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