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Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
supersnoop said:
The whole thing is an overreaction especially by the Chinese government. As you said yourself, not everything is under the purview of the Chinese government. If a private company wants to sell, then why shouldn’t it? (if assets are not inside China) A company is trying to reduce its exposure to risk. Hutchinson already lost a contract in Israel in 2020 thanks to US shenanigans.
In your later scenario, if Blackrock blocked Chinese ships, no country would allow this. Conversely if Hutchinson blocked American ships, do you think this would work out well?

Killing his whole family? wtf is this? Just ridiculous. Did they kill Jack Ma’s family when he made the comments with regards to Ant IPO? He probably created a worse situation than this at least in terms of media exposure. Just subject his company to more regulation, this is not bandit country India…

Let me offer a more mundane example. SharkNinja was separated from the Chinese parent company and IPO’ed basically to limit the risk exposure. Now the CEO says they will try to source from outside China. Does the chairman (Wang Xuning) need to be murdered? Would you merely cut his ear off if the goods are assembled in VN and Thailand of Chinese parts?
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They nearly never over or underreact, it's a calculated reaction based on what they're preparing to do.

But yes obviously no one will die. And you correctly surmise it is a fairly routine investment switch. The real question is why the government choose to stir up the regulators in the last minute like that, they clearly smelled blood for whatever reason.

I think I see what's up, because Blackrock is Democrat aligned, it's not in the in-group of Trump oligarchs (that's also why Trump hasn't taken to the streets celebrating any "win" whereas he usually grasps at the tiniest hint of something that looks good). Which means they don't have protections anymore.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
supersnoop said:
The whole thing is an overreaction especially by the Chinese government. As you said yourself, not everything is under the purview of the Chinese government. If a private company wants to sell, then why shouldn’t it? (if assets are not inside China) A company is trying to reduce its exposure to risk. Hutchinson already lost a contract in Israel in 2020 thanks to US shenanigans.
In your later scenario, if Blackrock blocked Chinese ships, no country would allow this. Conversely if Hutchinson blocked American ships, do you think this would work out well?

Killing his whole family? wtf is this? Just ridiculous. Did they kill Jack Ma’s family when he made the comments with regards to Ant IPO? He probably created a worse situation than this at least in terms of media exposure. Just subject his company to more regulation, this is not bandit country India…

Let me offer a more mundane example. SharkNinja was separated from the Chinese parent company and IPO’ed basically to limit the risk exposure. Now the CEO says they will try to source from outside China. Does the chairman (Wang Xuning) need to be murdered? Would you merely cut his ear off if the goods are assembled in VN and Thailand of Chinese parts?
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You are being naive in thinking CK Hutchison got all its port stakes all along China’s BRI through just commercial dealings. Or do you think the likes of Boeing, LockMart, Blackrock itself are purely commercial entities that can go off and do major strategic deals with China behind the back of the American government?

If it was purely a financial matter, any number of Chinese companies could, and would have come forward to offer the same, if not better deals for the port holdings. If this was a normal commercial sale, it wouldn’t have just been negotiations with a single buyer in secret until the deal was done. Indeed, it’s frankly bizarre that CK Hutchison didn’t bring in a second prospective buyer, if for no other reason that to boost its bargaining position to get a better price out of Blackrock.

Simply put, this was a betrayal of China, simple as that. And there are good reasons China didn’t stop with just the traitor himself when it came to executions for high treason. The Chinese civilisation would not have survived to today if it doesn’t have the stomach to be ruthless when necessary.

It’s completely different from Jack Ma because Jack was just getting too big for his boots and starting to pick up the bad habits of the Americans thinking he could use his wealth to influence government decisions to change the very rules of the game to favour him and his company.
 
B

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
plawolf said:
You are being naive in thinking CK Hutchison got all its port stakes all along China’s BRI through just commercial dealings. Or do you think the likes of Boeing, LockMart, Blackrock itself are purely commercial entities that can go off and do major strategic deals with China behind the back of the American government?

If it was purely a financial matter, any number of Chinese companies could, and would have come forward to offer the same, if not better deals for the port holdings. If this was a normal commercial sale, it wouldn’t have just been negotiations with a single buyer in secret until the deal was done. Indeed, it’s frankly bizarre that CK Hutchison didn’t bring in a second prospective buyer, if for no other reason that to boost its bargaining position to get a better price out of Blackrock.

Simply put, this was a betrayal of China, simple as that. And there are good reasons China didn’t stop with just the traitor himself when it came to executions for high treason. The Chinese civilisation would not have survived to today if it doesn’t have the stomach to be ruthless when necessary.

It’s completely different from Jack Ma because Jack was just getting too big for his boots and starting to pick up the bad habits of the Americans thinking he could use his wealth to influence government decisions to change the very rules of the game to favour him and his company.
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Why would you ever physically attack anyone from Li Ka Shing clique when you can just take Blackrock's money while locking them out of their own purchases, then use the news coverage to also seize assets/power from CK at the same time?

Trump won't be able to stand up for Blackrock. How would he, Blackrock was likely one of the interests that gave Trump a new ear piercing

Neither can anyone stand up for Li Ka Shing since the word on the street now is that he's borderline hanjian. Doesn't matter if it's an "overreaction" from media, the damage has already been done. He will spend the rest of his life buying whatever indulgences Beijing tells him he must buy
 
S

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
plawolf said:
You are being naive in thinking CK Hutchison got all its port stakes all along China’s BRI through just commercial dealings. Or do you think the likes of Boeing, LockMart, Blackrock itself are purely commercial entities that can go off and do major strategic deals with China behind the back of the American government?

If it was purely a financial matter, any number of Chinese companies could, and would have come forward to offer the same, if not better deals for the port holdings. If this was a normal commercial sale, it wouldn’t have just been negotiations with a single buyer in secret until the deal was done. Indeed, it’s frankly bizarre that CK Hutchison didn’t bring in a second prospective buyer, if for no other reason that to boost its bargaining position to get a better price out of Blackrock.

Simply put, this was a betrayal of China, simple as that. And there are good reasons China didn’t stop with just the traitor himself when it came to executions for high treason. The Chinese civilisation would not have survived to today if it doesn’t have the stomach to be ruthless when necessary.

It’s completely different from Jack Ma because Jack was just getting too big for his boots and starting to pick up the bad habits of the Americans thinking he could use his wealth to influence government decisions to change the very rules of the game to favour him and his company.
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From a solely commercial perspective
- Another Chinese company would likely get tied up by American gerrymandering
- Single buyer because there is not many entities that can finance 20b, especially in this environment, otherwise you will need to sell piecemeal

CK probably worked together with the government on executing BRI, that's true, but now any BRI dealings with the west is basically dead. There is no argument otherwise.

Not everything is some galaxy-brain strategic plan. Look at all the crap HNA and Wanda were pulling, buying all kinds of assets. They did not have any approval from the government. In fact, it was the opposite. Their irresponsible borrowing of money like it was nothing (and Banks lending them money like it was nothing) ended up getting them in trouble, it was the savings of Chinese people after all. Still, did anyone from HNA get executed? (only HNA the company was) Did anyone from Wanda get executed? They spent all that money on that piece of crap Great Wall movie, but they didn't die for it. These are arguably greater crimes.

Biscuits said:
They nearly never over or underreact, it's a calculated reaction based on what they're preparing to do.
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Yes, after re-reading, I think it is better to say "probably not an overreaction by the government, but the frenzy it has stirred up is an overreaction."

Biscuits said:
Why would you ever physically attack anyone from Li Ka Shing clique when you can just take Blackrock's money while locking them out of their own purchases, then use the news coverage to also seize assets/power from CK at the same time?

Trump won't be able to stand up for Blackrock. How would he, Blackrock was likely one of the interests that gave Trump a new ear piercing

Neither can anyone stand up for Li Ka Shing since the word on the street now is that he's borderline hanjian. Doesn't matter if it's an "overreaction" from media, the damage has already been done. He will spend the rest of his life buying whatever indulgences Beijing tells him he must buy
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Personally, I don't think Li Ka Shing is a hanjian. He is just a businessperson. He must know the power of the central government after they executed his son's kidnappers even though the crimes were committed in HK (though he was arrested in mainland). However, his time is past, he is old himself, the people he was close to are no longer in power, HK is not the economic nucleus as it was before. Maybe the government is just signaling this so people don't feel that Chinese companies can be pushed around. Maybe it is just another Jack Ma situation, a reminder that businesspeople cannot usurp the power and to avoid idol worship (a la Elon Musk).
 
M

MortyandRick

Senior Member
Registered Member
supersnoop said:
From a solely commercial perspective
- Another Chinese company would likely get tied up by American gerrymandering
- Single buyer because there is not many entities that can finance 20b, especially in this environment, otherwise you will need to sell piecemeal

CK probably worked together with the government on executing BRI, that's true, but now any BRI dealings with the west is basically dead. There is no argument otherwise.

Not everything is some galaxy-brain strategic plan. Look at all the crap HNA and Wanda were pulling, buying all kinds of assets. They did not have any approval from the government. In fact, it was the opposite. Their irresponsible borrowing of money like it was nothing (and Banks lending them money like it was nothing) ended up getting them in trouble, it was the savings of Chinese people after all. Still, did anyone from HNA get executed? (only HNA the company was) Did anyone from Wanda get executed? They spent all that money on that piece of crap Great Wall movie, but they didn't die for it. These are arguably greater crimes.


Yes, after re-reading, I think it is better to say "probably not an overreaction by the government, but the frenzy it has stirred up is an overreaction."


Personally, I don't think Li Ka Shing is a hanjian. He is just a businessperson. He must know the power of the central government after they executed his son's kidnappers even though the crimes were committed in HK (though he was arrested in mainland). However, his time is past, he is old himself, the people he was close to are no longer in power, HK is not the economic nucleus as it was before. Maybe the government is just signaling this so people don't feel that Chinese companies can be pushed around. Maybe it is just another Jack Ma situation, a reminder that businesspeople cannot usurp the power and to avoid idol worship (a la Elon Musk).
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Yeah I do not share the same optimism.

This deal needs to be cancelled or put under extreme scrutiny and a deal made with Trump to give something for this deal to go through.

I am not concerned about China disrupting "business operations" cause the US would 100% do the same. The US would definitely put in place that US companies can't deal with Chinese ships and those ports would be off limits.

And I would not put it pass CK to have secretly made the sale due to US pressure and possibly US threatening him to make the sale. Or maybe even agreed to allow his family to keep their wealth in western countries.

That's a lot of ports for such a low price. China needs to make sure ppl like him feel the pressure. They didn't want to sell to China but sold to the US? They need to learn that china can cause pain for them as well.

This deal needs or be blocked imo. But hey what do I know.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
supersnoop said:
From a solely commercial perspective
- Another Chinese company would likely get tied up by American gerrymandering
- Single buyer because there is not many entities that can finance 20b, especially in this environment, otherwise you will need to sell piecemeal

CK probably worked together with the government on executing BRI, that's true, but now any BRI dealings with the west is basically dead. There is no argument otherwise.

Not everything is some galaxy-brain strategic plan. Look at all the crap HNA and Wanda were pulling, buying all kinds of assets. They did not have any approval from the government. In fact, it was the opposite. Their irresponsible borrowing of money like it was nothing (and Banks lending them money like it was nothing) ended up getting them in trouble, it was the savings of Chinese people after all. Still, did anyone from HNA get executed? (only HNA the company was) Did anyone from Wanda get executed? They spent all that money on that piece of crap Great Wall movie, but they didn't die for it. These are arguably greater crimes.
Click to expand...

If you honestly think making shitty investment decisions overpaying for hotels and other equally strategically irrelevant assets is the same as selling strategically important infrastructure to your country’s publicly declared enemy; or that making a movie, no matter how terrible, is a death crime, then clearly I am wasting my time here.
 
R

Ringsword

Junior Member
Registered Member
Phead128 said:

REVEALED: Half of Canadians favour joining EU — Carney says Canada is 'the most European of non-European countries'​

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​

Interesting way of framing things.
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Just recently a French SSN(Suffren class?) surfaced in Nova Scotia-if the rest of English Canada is actually annexed by USA then France will regain her ancestral territories of Quebec.A reversal of the pivotal Battle of the Plains of Abraham which saw the lost of French Canada to England.
 
4Runner

4Runner

Junior Member
Registered Member
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This is significant on surface. And it is more significant in what it means to global war on manufacturing or sourcing or offshoring or re-shoring, which are all relevant to what Trump wants.

In short, given what China already has in manufacturing eco-systems and technological eco-systems, it is very hard for high-cost models to compete against Chinese models in the same vertical business sector. NEV is just a classic example. I could have recalled electronics manufacturing service industry in good old days. The longer the timer ticks, the more acute this issue manifests to those high-cost competitors.

In this particular story of NEV, Tesla, like other electronics OEMs or ODMs before its being, has gained tremendous competitive advantages from Shanghai Giga Factory. If there were no Chinese native competitors, Tesla would have been sitting pretty. But facing formidable competitors such as BYD, Tesla global cost model is no longer efficient enough. In other words, it becomes a high-cost competitor.

I will let you guys translate what it actually means 5 years, 10 years down the road ......
 
S

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
plawolf said:
If you honestly think making shitty investment decisions overpaying for hotels and other equally strategically irrelevant assets is the same as selling strategically important infrastructure to your country’s publicly declared enemy; or that making a movie, no matter how terrible, is a death crime, then clearly I am wasting my time here.
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If you don’t understand the concept of an operating lease vs. actually owning critical national infrastructure then clearly I am wasting my time here.
 
I

iewgnem

Senior Member
Registered Member
plawolf said:
It’s not what the Americans say or think, it’s what they can incite others to do. It doesn’t need to be a lot, a handful of minor powers making a grab for Chinese assets under the pretext of national security will give China far bigger headaches in terms of how it could respond. Too little risk inviting other chancers to get greedy and try their luck, too strong and you risk making America’s point for them.

If the deal also included ports in China, then China would have a legitimate case to block it under national security grounds. That’s why those holdings were deliberately stripped out and not part of this deal. These are all ports in foreign countries that China has no jurisdiction in. China can’t reasonably argue that the sale will harm Chinese national security without implicitly making the case that it views its overseas infrastructure investments as national security related, thereby undermining China’s core message that these deals comes with no strings attached.

This was a loss, China should learn from it, but it shouldn’t make a bigger strategic blunder trying to undo this one.

At the end of the day, these ports are under the jurisdiction of the national governments in which they are located. Black rock owning them doesn’t give them any special powers on who and what can use those ports. If they tried to ban Chinese shipping from the ports, the local government will immediately seize the port from Blackrock on national security grounds.
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If countries had the balls to go after Chinese assets using Beijing influence as pretense, they would also go after US assets using Trump's order to BlackRock as pretense.

This is why you care too much what America says, America doesnt need pretense to incite anything, its precisely Chinese state power that prevent Chinese assets from being taken over. There is no such thing as China having to playing by commercial rules while US exercise state power.

Lastly Chinese interest is supreme over all, it doesnt even matter if its legal, because China will make it legal. The "rule based order" was the only thing preventing China from doing whatever it wants, by demolishing it and replacing it with rule of power, Trump started a new game and in this game he's not the one with power. FAFO
 
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