That only happens in novels/operas. When the Japanese -- who were Romance of the Three Kingdoms aficionados -- challenged Chinese commanders to one-on-one combats, most of them ended up getting an arrow to the face.
Ming-Mongol Wars
- Thread starter solarz
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That only happens in novels/operas. When the Japanese -- who were Romance of the Three Kingdoms aficionados -- challenged Chinese commanders to one-on-one combats, most of them ended up getting an arrow to the face.
solarz
Brigadier
Definitely there's no way 5000 can kill 500k, but when I said "wiped out", I meant the Ming army that was 500k-strong, was annihilated. It doesn't matter how many soldiers actually died, it only mattered that the army disintegrated and ceased to exist, for all practical purposes.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Well no way that 5000 of the 11th century Ad could wipe out 500,000 of the same era. In the modern age 500 can wipe out 500,000... hell 1 could.
solarz
Brigadier
Not 11th century, 15th century.
Also keep in mind that Chinese historical records sometimes (not always) inflate the number of participants involved.
wtlh
Junior Member
Exactly. The "heroic" generals were romantic literature creations only. One-on-one duals and with the rest of the army melting away only existed in the fantasy land of novels and folk-tales.
Of course brave soldiers got promoted and brave leaders encourage brave soldiers, but individual bravery did not actually get you very far, only up to may be a leader of 100. Going further up, in individual unit level, it was the enemy head-counts belonging to your unit that mattered; and even further to general level, it was the ability to manoeuvre and motivate large armies, the people network---i.e. your reputation amongst the rank and files, the ability to use the right people in right positions, and the ability to recognise and then implement the correct overall strategies, and last but not the least, politics, i.e. the ability to get the emperor on your side became the deciding factors of whether you got promoted to the job or not.
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wtlh
Junior Member
There was absolutely no way to get an army of 500K all across into the desert and get them supplied, let alone all fighting at the same time.
To put it in prospective. The Grand-Army commanded by Hong Chengchou numbered about 100K, and that was the campaign total involving hundreds of units, spreading across several provinces. And it constituted the bulk of the regular army strength of Ming.
To put it in prospective. The Grand-Army commanded by Hong Chengchou numbered about 100K, and that was the campaign total involving hundreds of units, spreading across several provinces. And it constituted the bulk of the regular army strength of Ming.
solarz
Brigadier
You know, when I grew up reading those romances, I've always wondered this: what was the point of bringing all those soldiers with you if the battle was going to be decided by 1-on-1 duels between generals?
Another funny literary trope was the 免战牌. It was essentially a unilateral declaration of cease-fire, and somehow the opposing army would automatically respect it!
wtlh
Junior Member
You know, when I grew up reading those romances, I've always wondered this: what was the point of bringing all those soldiers with you if the battle was going to be decided by 1-on-1 duels between generals?
Another funny literary trope was the 免战牌. It was essentially a unilateral declaration of cease-fire, and somehow the opposing army would automatically respect it!
oh, yes that thing! The general is injured or sick, or had a bad dream last night, so a 免战牌 hangs on the wall; the opposing army saw it, and goes "Awww.... no fighting today?" and all just grudgingly go back to their own camp, with heads held low.Also mythical and unrealistic was the romantic depiction of the military formations, such as the Ba-Gua formation. I do admit, however, that this is more of an issue with TV and movies, which however did convey an entirely false image of what actual formations of such look like or are for.
Ba-Gua formation (which is a mentioned name in ancient military manuals) is not a static Ba-Gua looking maze made of men. And they certainly do not act to defeat the enemy by making them running around inside like headless chickens inside the maze, because for one thing, enemies do not just run into gaps in your formations in narrow files with lots and lots of flags like Olympics opening ceremonies.
SteelBird
Colonel
You know, when I grew up reading those romances, I've always wondered this: what was the point of bringing all those soldiers with you if the battle was going to be decided by 1-on-1 duels between generals?
Another funny literary trope was the 免战牌. It was essentially a unilateral declaration of cease-fire, and somehow the opposing army would automatically respect it!
Well, I don't know much about these histories. However, watching from movies, when generals were fighting on a one-to-one basis, the soldiers were cheering for their own generals. If one side's general lost or killed, the soldiers of the winning side will flood over and kill the other side's soldiers. I also read that battles before the Warring-States period were mostly cart battles (车战). Both sides of the conflict usually have an appoint of where and when the battle will take place.