Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech but..

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

lilzz said:

I believe SU-35 contains fighter jet AESA. Yes, Russia is starting to mass produce and deploy SU-35.

What China has right now is NOT fighter jet AESA, it's based on different technologies.

Fighte jet AESA design is alot stringent and tight.

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what the heck? Su-35's radar is not AESA in any way shape or form. The Russians haven't shown any capability of being able to cheaply mass produce the T/R modules needed for a modern fighter radar.

And that's the point right? The Russians haven't even been able to develop a shipborne or surveillance AESA radar. And you think it's that easy for them to just move to fighter radar?

And considering how far NIIP is still from developing a fully functional AESA radar, I wouldn't call Irbis a transitional design on path to AESA radar. It's more like an ultimate version in a long lineage of Russian PESA radars.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

lilzz said:

I believe SU-35 contains fighter jet AESA. Yes, Russia is starting to mass produce and deploy SU-35.

What China has right now is NOT fighter jet AESA, it's based on different technologies.

Fighte jet AESA design is alot stringent and tight.

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Very incorrect....by a long way...

Su-35 (Su-27BM) has the NIIP 'Irbis-E' hybrid-SA. Combines PESA as well as mechanical scanning.

Two russian firms to display AESA are Phazotron-NIIR & Tikhomirov-NIIP

The NIIP 1st showed Epaulet-A (small AESA) with 68 T/R modules. Then this year at MAKS 2009 they displayed the AESA RADAR for PAK-FA (Roughly ~1500 T/R module). Its exact status is unknown.

NIIR in 2007 displayed the Zhuk-A/AE. Initially its performance was limited to 3m2 @ 130km (look-up). But that has been improving. But still no orders for this RADAR...

It is possible that Su-35 can be upgraded with a version of the NIIP AESA but for now, its definitely NOT carrying an AESA.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

Russia cannot even provide heat and power to a big city like Vladivostok. The payment from the central government in Moscow for the coal shipment disappears, nobody knows where it went ( the mayor says it was never received, maybe the regional governor took it? ) so no coal is delivered. Winter in Vlad and no coal at the power plant. Nice. Pipes for hot water and steam break and are left unrepaired as residents of apartment blocks freeze. In Moscow ancient hot water pipes burst under ground, people fall into sink holes filled with scalding water and are literally boiled alive. The road from Magadan to the west is an impassable sea of mud in the winter. All you have from Moscow to St. Petersburg are mostly two lanes of busted pavement that destroys trucks. But some how Russia is supposed to have money for 200 SU-35's? My aching arse! I'll believe that one when they are flying.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

OK, maybe Russia are not quite there yet. but at least it earning kudos for demonstrate working or semi working prototypes in different confiugrations, points for being creative. AESAs, PESA Bars, and Planars.

I only see Planars with China, that's not very creative.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

There's a video on state television where a PLA spokeswoman states that a J-10 has been equipped with some sort of electronically scanned radar (which I assume would be AESA.) Obviously still in the testing stage.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

tphuang said:

what the heck? Su-35's radar is not AESA in any way shape or form.

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Yes it is, in the way all HYBRID ESA are similar to AESA. It's receiver part function exactly like AESA radar, it have more than 1000 receiver modules. BARS function same way. BTW, from 2008 Indian BARS finally have ability to programaticaly alter it's side lobs, witch is BY FAR most important quality of AESA / HESA radars (for military,not for forum fans). What is unique for Irbis is shear power,achieved by using two TWT's.

but N035 has four receive frequencies vs three for the N011

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Irbis have 4 monopulse channels (Bars have 3), not something great per se, it's simple because using two twt's.

The Russians haven't shown any capability of being able to cheaply mass produce the T/R modules needed for a modern fighter radar.

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From this sumer mass production started (in two different companies).

The Russians haven't even been able to develop a shipborne or surveillance AESA radar.

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Russians did not developed practically no new shipborne radar since USSR fail.
But surveillance radars? You must be kidding? Search for NEBO-SVU or Gamma DE for example.

And you think it's that easy for them to just move to fighter radar?

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I don't know what lilzz think , but i KNOW it will be (relatively) easy for them. First AESA (not experimental) appeared in USSR in 1979!!! Why some people think you need GA modules for every AESA is beyond me (radar from 1979 use 80 klystrons). Compact radars, of course, need small T\R modules but all other work can be done with not solid state components. (Nebo-SVU and Gamma-DE use solid state T\R modules)

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

NightHook said:

I don't know what lilzz think , but i KNOW it will be (relatively) easy for them. First AESA (not experimental) appeared in USSR in 1979!!! Why some people think you need GA modules for every AESA is beyond me (radar from 1979 use 80 klystrons). Compact radars, of course, need small T\R modules but all other work can be done with not solid state components. (Nebo-SVU and Gamma-DE use solid state T\R modules)

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Yeah 1960s, computer using vaccum tube, base on your reason why comupter today need solid state sub nm prcoess, why not just use vaccum tube?


Hint, vaccum tube, klystron can't fit into the head of the fighter. second excessive lost of energy, breakdown of tube, reliability issue, ...everything about vaccum tube are just sucks. Even my Grandpa would throw that junk away.


China has better solid state /semiconductor technology than Russia but it just in a funk, can't seem translate that well to military.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

NightHook said:

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Yeah...

I personally have no doubts about the Russian ability...Especially the Soviet days.....They have a long history....

MiG-31 carried worlds 1st fighter Phased-Array RADAR.

The present lag-behind has more to do with horror days that came after SU collapsed.

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

lilzz said:

Yeah 1960s, computer using vaccum tube, base on your reason why comupter today need solid state sub nm prcoess, why not just use vaccum tube?


Hint, vaccum tube, klystron can't fit into the head of the fighter. second excessive lost of energy, breakdown of tube, reliability issue, ...everything about vaccum tube are just sucks. Even my Grandpa would throw that junk away.


China has better solid state /semiconductor technology than Russia but it just in a funk, can't seem translate that well to military.

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The manufacturing technology alone is not enough. Thats like saying a foundry having the ability to make ##nm process can also design a great microarchitecture?

Re: Many have said China has catched up or even surpassed Russia in electronic tech b

NightHook said:

Yes it is, in the way all HYBRID ESA are similar to AESA. It's receiver part function exactly like AESA radar, it have more than 1000 receiver modules. BARS function same way. BTW, from 2008 Indian BARS finally have ability to programaticaly alter it's side lobs, witch is BY FAR most important quality of AESA / HESA radars (for military,not for forum fans). What is unique for Irbis is shear power,achieved by using two TWT's.

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right, let's do that. Let's call every PESA radar AESA. Let's redefine the definition of AESA so that the Russians (and you) can say that they do.

From this sumer mass production started (in two different companies).

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right, since they don't have any fighters using AESA radar in the next while, why don't you show who is producing them and for what and the cost?

Russians did not developed practically no new shipborne radar since USSR fail.
But surveillance radars? You must be kidding? Search for NEBO-SVU or Gamma DE for example.

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when I say surveillance, I was talking about AWACS and you bring up a VHF radar and solid state phased array radar? And is there any support to them being AESA? I have never heard of VHF band radar being AESA.

I don't know what lilzz think , but i KNOW it will be (relatively) easy for them. First AESA (not experimental) appeared in USSR in 1979!!! Why some people think you need GA modules for every AESA is beyond me (radar from 1979 use 80 klystrons). Compact radars, of course, need small T\R modules but all other work can be done with not solid state components. (Nebo-SVU and Gamma-DE use solid state T\R modules)

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right, you are saying that the two major firms have just been sitting on their butt the entire time? So it's easy that the Americans are already operational with their 2nd generation of fighter AESA radar and NIIP is finally showing a model of what their radar will look like?

Crobato knows more about Russian radar than I do, but let's just say that the recent Russian ventures into the fighter radar development world hasn't been too great. Do you know what happened to Pero antenna or Zhuk-MSE or Zhuk-MFE or Zhuk-MSF? Yeah, me neither.