Major terrorist attack in Oslo, Norway

airsuperiority said:

Instances where the flaws of laws failed to do justice for those who died

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Just my personal opinion, I personally don't see how such a law could contribute to the good of the society. The only "good thing" could be the relatives of all those victims who died have the option of killing the bugger once he's out of jail and 21 years in jail is a bargain they're willing to take.

airsuperiority said:

However simultaneously even as a psychology major that I am, while although I believe man is born a blank slate, I hold great reserve that once they've adopted their values, they can be completely rehabilitated or "taught" to change and thus changes the game. I believe there are some who can be changed and given a second chance, and these are the ones who merely aren't aware of the wrong ways of their actions. These ones are the ones who are prospective to good change if given proper help.

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The problem with the Prison system is that it can't make up its mind whether it should be a punishment or a means of rehabilitation.

I think Prison should just be a punishment. Stop giving out paroles, and make the prisoners work for their privileges, including food. If you don't work, you don't get to eat.

Rehabilitation should come after the prison sentence is met.

I was writing a longer post to debate some of these questions, but in the end I decided not to throw away everything in a moral debate. Instead, I stumbled on a German news article that pretty much summed up my views. (Again sorry for any overt nationalism)

"Even in their deepest sorrow the norwegians don't get hysterical. They resist the hate. It is amazing to see how politicians and the whole country reacts. They are sad to the deepest thread of their souls. They cry in dignity. But nobody swears to take revenge. Instead they want even more humanity and democracy. That is one of the most remarkable strengths of that little country."

Just to clarify that I'm not advocating revenge in my previous post. It's just to show that the same pattern of thoughts might have gone on in the killer's mind. He may have thought that 21 years jail is a bargain he's willing to take in order to commit the heinous crime just so he gets access to a political platform. Capital punishment may not have stopped a criminal from committing a crime but in this case it just may have stopped the killer from committing the crime since he needs to be alive to continue with his political cause. A law that is negotiable with the criminal minds may not be effective enough to protect the citizens of the country.

Quickie said:

Just to clarify that I'm not advocating revenge in my previous post. It's just to show that the same pattern of thoughts might have gone on in the killer's mind. He may have thought that 21 years jail is a bargain he's willing to take in order to commit the heinous crime just so he gets access to a political platform. Capital punishment may not have stopped a criminal from committing a crime but in this case it just may have stopped the killer from committing the crime since he needs to be alive to continue with his political cause. A law that is negotiable with the criminal minds may not be effective enough to protect the citizens of the country.

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I don't believe that is the case... if anything there's no way for the killer to know he will be caught alive. There's just an equally good chance he could've been shot on sight by the police. Someone like him probably doesn't care about the consequences of his actions and even if Norway has capital punishment he most likely would've still done what he did.
With all that being said Norway DOES have a provision for life imprisonment if the state deem the perp cannot be rehabilitated and poses a clear and present danger to society forever. He may be sentence to 21 yrs max BUT after that he will continue to stay in some sort of confinement facility for the rest of his life.
Maybe Maggern can speak for to it since as he may know Norwegian laws better than I do.

kwaigonegin said:

I don't believe that is the case... if anything there's no way for the killer to know he will be caught alive. There's just an equally good chance he could've been shot on sight by the police. Someone like him probably doesn't care about the consequences of his actions and even if Norway has capital punishment he most likely would've still done what he did.
With all that being said Norway DOES have a provision for life imprisonment if the state deem the perp cannot be rehabilitated and poses a clear and present danger to society forever. He may be sentence to 21 yrs max BUT after that he will continue to stay in some sort of confinement facility for the rest of his life.
Maybe Maggern can speak for to it since as he may know Norwegian laws better than I do.

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He may not know for sure but he can plan accordingly to increase his chance of getting caught alive like targetting an island where he knows there're no policemen.

solarz said:

The problem with the Prison system is that it can't make up its mind whether it should be a punishment or a means of rehabilitation.

I think Prison should just be a punishment. Stop giving out paroles, and make the prisoners work for their privileges, including food. If you don't work, you don't get to eat.

Rehabilitation should come after the prison sentence is met.

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This is where China excels the West; a moderate-at-best emphasis on human rights. Perhaps China has learned enough from its history that not always can we treat man with respect, therefore human rights is a kind of "waste of breath thing". Why I'm saying that is because in the West, where ANYTHING that is deemed a bit harsher than what a person typically should be going through, and that's given by an institution, is a prospective market for lawsuits.

solarz said:

The problem with the Prison system is that it can't make up its mind whether it should be a punishment or a means of rehabilitation.

I think Prison should just be a punishment. Stop giving out paroles, and make the prisoners work for their privileges, including food. If you don't work, you don't get to eat.

Rehabilitation should come after the prison sentence is met.

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Rehab after sentence maybe a bit too late sometimes, but the same time I argue against certain aspects of the law that's too flawed, that you get many escaping what they should be really paying for. This is especially true if the person has certain popularity or power in the society, where then it's a greater game of who has more ammo to fire the case. Even then, they often get away light. Let's be reminded of that IMF rapist, and even the spoiled bitch from HK called Amina, who's got the backing of her uncle, a judge in the HK Supreme Court. (the bitch had multiple incidents where she slapped police officer in the face when she was DUI and they pulled her over, or requested her to show her ID when she was speeding or something. the case got very notorious in HK where not only everyone hates the shit out of her because she represents the wealthy scum in the society who knows she can do anything she wants. Finally after 2 earlier incidents of failing to sentence her for her repeated action due to pleads of mentally unfit for trial or something, she was finally sentenced to half a year of prison. Although still quite light, we're all finally happy that she finally get what she deserves. Anything of course is, that her uncle is probably at the background trying to pull strings, and it almost worked. The Crown (prosecutor) and the HKPF all struggled against a near-succeeded unfair verdict of her being non-guilty. Perhaps her excuses didn't work after doing it so many times.

The perpetrator of these attacks reminds me a lot of the former leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, Abu Musab al Zarqawi. They both attempted to use purposefully horrific violence against the most civilian of targets, in an attempt to force wrenching change on the societies they attacked, in service of a clash-of-civilizations type ideology.

He probably did more damage to his cause than he could imagine.

kwaigonegin said:

With all that being said Norway DOES have a provision for life imprisonment if the state deem the perp cannot be rehabilitated and poses a clear and present danger to society forever. He may be sentence to 21 yrs max BUT after that he will continue to stay in some sort of confinement facility for the rest of his life.
Maybe Maggern can speak for to it since as he may know Norwegian laws better than I do.

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WE have one in NZ, Its called protective custody where the convicted can be held indefinitely. I also think the sentencing judge stipulates that at the time of sentencing, although I think interested parties can request a review from time to time. AS far as the Norwegian one is concerned I think its the prosecuting side that has to request it and it has to be reapplied for every few yrs?

By the way has anyone attempted to read the guys manifesto? and would they censor parts of it Apparently it also gives a pretty good description of his bomb making attempts. Some terrorist wanabe may find that part rather informative.