Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I don't think so, because ... it's Norwegian! (the design, the missile) well, I'm not an American :) but one of my hobbies is naval history (beginning with the 1906 Dreadnought though) so I know every Major Navy of the World has been proud of its ships, weapons, tactics etc. if you know what I'm saying
The US will already use the Joint Strike Missile which is a derivative of the NSM with longer range, dual seekers, etc. on the F-35. That deal is already made.

Since that is the case, it would be relatively easy to move forward with the NSM as well...having the production occur in the US. I do not think Norway would mind at all, and the US could use that missile for the LCS program and then use the US LRASM for the Burkes and other larger combatants.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The US Navy has been deleting anti ship missile launchers from many of their surface fleet units; the Burke's for the most part lost their Harpoon missiles, and so have the Perry's.
Only the Flight IIA Burkes do not have the Harpoons. The initial 28 vessels still have the two quad canisters.

The Harpoon continues to improve and is not obsolete. It is used by the US and by many allies and will continue to be used for many years to come.

The US does however want a longer ranged missile that can be launched from the VLS cells. The decision was made not to do the VL Haproon because other longer ranged options were coming along. The Tactical Tomahawk and now the LRASM will both be launched vertically and offer much longer range.

The Navy probably made the decision that because the Harpoon missile will leave the fleet probably by the end of the decade, there is no point in integrating Harpoon onto LCS, when LCS already has a anti-shipping capability with the embarked SH-60's, and when the future mission package becomes available.
The HArpoon would be far, far superior in terms of ASM than anything yet attempted for the LCS.

The short ranged missiles from the helos do not compare, neither do the Griffin missiles. They decided to focus on the swarming small craft and left off any capability to engage larger vessels at range. That severe vulnerability has been noted and will be corrected. it also was one of the major reasons that the LCS build was cut back and the US Navy is going to look at a more traditional, multi-role frigate. Even then, for the 32 LCS they do build, even having four Harpoons would be superior to having none.

I do hope that they develop a sea launched, VL version of the JSM that the US will procure for the F-35s. it would be an ideal solution IMHO.
 
Only the Flight IIA Burkes do not have the Harpoons. The initial 28 vessels still have the two quad canisters.

... Even then, for the 32 LCS they do build, even having four Harpoons would be superior to having none.

...

recently a war-game took place http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/us-military-news-thread-165-1547.html#post276192 in which a LCS was was "paired" (this is the word used in that press release) with an AB destroyer

EDIT
I wanted to go on with some deep thoughts of an Armchair Admiral :) but then had to leave for a couple of minutes, so I'll it cut it short now: a 3000 tons vessel can't fight alone anyway!
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
The US will already use the Joint Strike Missile which is a derivative of the NSM with longer range, dual seekers, etc. on the F-35. That deal is already made.

The Joint Strike Missile is currently a Norwegian only missile. Norway has committed funds for integration onto Norwegian F-35's only. Kongsberg is currently actively marketing JSM to other nations right now.

Only the Flight IIA Burkes do not have the Harpoons. The initial 28 vessels still have the two quad canisters.

The Harpoon continues to improve and is not obsolete. It is used by the US and by many allies and will continue to be used for many years to come.

The US does however want a longer ranged missile that can be launched from the VLS cells. The decision was made not to do the VL Haproon because other longer ranged options were coming along. The Tactical Tomahawk and now the LRASM will both be launched vertically and offer much longer range.

The HArpoon would be far, far superior in terms of ASM than anything yet attempted for the LCS.

The Harpoon missiles in the current inventory are going to be life-expired soon. I've heard 2017 as the year when the bulk of the Harpoon missile inventory is set to expire without a service life extension, which the Navy has not funded.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
The Joint Strike Missile is currently a Norwegian only missile. Norway has committed funds for integration onto Norwegian F-35's only. Kongsberg is currently actively marketing JSM to other nations right now.
On which jets do you think that the testing for the JSM is occurring?

They are being externally fitted to all variants of the F-35 (Alpha, Bravo, and Charlie), and internally fitted for the F-35A. That started in March 2013. The JSM is the only such missile that currently fits into the internal bay of the F-35, so I expect it will ultimately be made available to all versions. The new US LRASM will not fit...and at this time, I do not believe there is another effort out there to create another stand-off attack missile that will.

The Norwegian's initial F-35s will not be ready or handed over until 2015.

So the testing for the JSM is occurring on US aricraft and Lockheed Martin and the US Military are working closely with Norway and Kongsberg to make that happen. That missile, IMHO, will be available to the US and other allies. But time will tell.

Pointblank said:
The Harpoon missiles in the current inventory are going to be life-expired soon. I've heard 2017 as the year when the bulk of the Harpoon missile inventory is set to expire without a service life extension, which the Navy has not funded.
The Department of Defense made a presentation to the US Congress in support of the 2014 Defense Budget entitled:

"
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"

In the introduction to that presentation the following was said,

US Defense Department Congressional Presntation said:
The United States Department of Defense (DoD) budget for Fiscal Year (FY) 2014 requests $526.6 billion to protect and advance security interests at home and abroad during the coming fiscal year and into the future. This budget reflects the difficult choices involved with protecting America’s security interests and role as a global power at a time of declining budgets and ongoing fiscal uncertainty about the future.

When speaking specifically of Harpoon missile exports in that presentation, they said:

US Defense Department Congressional Presntation said:
The Department of Defense is also expanding flexibility by continuing to export weapons to allies through foreign military sales, providing a critical opportunity to partner with our allies and increase interoperability by exporting munitions including:

• Harpoon maritime weapons

So, the US will continue to export Harpoon missiles to our allies. We would not do that if they missiles were of no use. In addition, and critically for the US inventory of Haproon missiles, the presentation went on to indicate how exporting the older Haproon missiles opens up opportunity for updating existing weapons in the US inventory at no cost:

US Defense Department Congressional Presntation said:
The Department of Defense is also pursuing creative partnerships with industry and allies to increase development and production efficiency. The Harpoon anti-ship weapon is a great example of this type of creative partnership. While we have a sufficient number of existing Harpoons, advancing threats require more capability. Instead of simply buying upgraded Harpoons, we are partnering with industry through a Sales Exchange Agreement to divest some legacy weapons in exchange for Harpoon II+ missile upgrade kits. Legacy missile components support ongoing sales of Harpoon missiles to allied and friendly nations while we receive Harpoon II+ missile upgrade kits at no additional cost. This initiative stabilizes the Harpoon industrial base, while upgrading missile performance, supporting our allies, and increasing US/International interoperability.

So, without allocating additional funding, the Harpoons are being upgraded with more capability and extended life, which is what I was trying to indicate to begin with.

recently a war-game took place http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/world-armed-forces/us-military-news-thread-165-1547.html#post276192 in which a LCS was was "paired" (this is the word used in that press release) with an AB destroyer

... so I'll it cut it short now: a 3000 tons vessel can't fight alone anyway!
In exercises on the high seas, when an LCS may be assiting in exscort duties, this would happen.

Also, in a major engagement in the littorals, it would happen.

But in the role intended for the LCS, where they are independently patrolling the littorals and conducting their own missions there, having to "pair" a Burke with the vessel defeats the purpose of the program. The LCS was meant ot be a vessel that could conduct independent "combat" operations in the "litorrals."

The problem has come (and embarassingly late in the process I might add, despite many of us crying out about this for years now) that potential adversary nations also have their own vessels in the littorals which carry significantly more powerful and longer ranged missiles than the LCS. The answer is simply to add capanbility (and they have the room for it) to the LCS so it can enggae other corvettes and light frigates it may have to contend with in the littorals.
 
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...

But in the role intended for the LCS, where they are independently patrolling the littorals and conducting their own missions there, having to "pair" a Burke with the vessel defeats the purpose of the program. The LCS was meant ot be a vessel that could conduct independent "combat" operations in the "litorrals."

The problem has come (and embarassingly late in the process I might add, despite many of us crying out about this for years now) that potential adversary nations also have their own vessels in the littorals which carry significantly more powerful and longer ranged missiles than the LCS. The answer is simply to add capanbility (and they have the room for it) to the LCS so it can enggae other corvettes and light frigates it may have to contend with in the littorals.

I don't understand this tactical problem: an LCS needs to operate some relatively powerful 3D radar, as close to the shore, there could be a hail of missiles coming (and some low-tech enemy might at least try to bomb, or to kamikaze), but at the same time, the radar would give out the position of the ship, telling the enemy where to attack ...?
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
But in the role intended for the LCS, where they are independently patrolling the littorals and conducting their own missions there, having to "pair" a Burke with the vessel defeats the purpose of the program. The LCS was meant ot be a vessel that could conduct independent "combat" operations in the "litorrals."


So LCS plays a role like some sort of recon along shorelines and data gathering with light combat (figurative of course) missions?
 
So LCS plays a role like some sort of recon along shorelines and data gathering with light combat (figurative of course) missions?

from
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quote
Exploit simplicity, numbers, the pace of technology development in electronics and robotics, and fast reconfiguration. That was the US Navy’s idea for the low-end backbone of its future surface combatant fleet. Inspired by successful experiments like Denmark’s Standard Flex ships, the US Navy’s $35+ billion “Littoral Combat Ship” program was intended to create a new generation of affordable surface combatants that could operate in dangerous shallow and near-shore environments, while remaining affordable and capable throughout their lifetimes.

It hasn’t worked that way. In practice, what the Navy wanted, the capabilities needed to perform primary naval missions, and what could be delivered for the sums available, have proven nearly irreconcilable. The LCS program has changed its fundamental acquisition plan 4 times since 2005, and canceled contracts with both competing teams during this period, without escaping any of its fundamental issues. Now, the program looks set to end early. This public-access FOCUS article offer a wealth of research material, alongside looks at the LCS program’s designs, industry teams procurement plans, military controversies, budgets and contracts.
end of quote
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
The USN has picked the AGM-114L Hellfire missile as the LCS Surface Warfare Package’s initial missile. Reasons given for selection is its fire and forget guidance, already exists in the US military's inventory, vertical launch capability, salvo capability, and ability to use the ship’s radar tipped the balance against Griffin.

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The Navy has traded Raytheon’s Griffin IIB missile for Lockheed Martin’s Longbow Hellfire AGM-114L for the surface-to-surface missile for early increments and testing for the surface warfare (SuW) mission package for the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS), the outgoing program manager for LCS Mission Modules (PMS 420), Rear Adm. John Ailes told reporters on Wednesday.

The choice between the missiles — roughly equivalent in size, range (about five miles) and warhead size — came in part from the ability of the Army’s Longbow to take targeting information from Saab’s Sea Giraffe radar and use its onboard millimeter wave seeker to find a target. The Griffin uses a semi-active laser seeker that requires the ship’s crew to ‘paint’ a target with a laser, limiting the number of missiles that can engage targets at once.

“We have these 10,000 [Longbow] missiles, there’s no cost risk at all, it’s vertically launchable and you can shoot lots of them at same time and you don’t have to do that thing where you keep the laser on it,” Ailes said.
“That’s why we’re excited about Longbow Hellfire.”

The Navy plans to test the missile aboard a LCS — likely USS Freedom (LCS-1) — next year. In 2013, the Navy tested the Longbow at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla. against simulated small boat targets successfully.
 
The USN has picked the AGM-114L Hellfire missile as the LCS Surface Warfare Package’s initial missile. Reasons given for selection is its fire and forget guidance, already exists in the US military's inventory, vertical launch capability, salvo capability, and ability to use the ship’s radar tipped the balance against Griffin.

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yeah but wikipedia says

AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire

Range: 8,000 m (8,749 yd)

For Armchair Admiral like me, that's NOT enough :)
 
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