Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

Scratch said:

Maybe some day one the the LCS designs will evolve into a FFG, which would mean it would have to get bigger, though.

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Lockheed and General Dynamics both already have multi-mission combatant versions of their LCS designs which offer the ability to perform all missions with no need for changing out mission packs.

Same hull, higher displacement.



...and here would be my proposal, using the US Coast Guard, National Defense Cutter hull:



BTW, this month, the US Government issued the contract for the fifth and sixth LCS for both GD and Lockheed, meaning 12 are now contracted and funded. An agreement for each to build 12 is already in place, so half of that total is now funded and in contract.

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

I have a noob question:

While most of time the coast guards are considered as some kind of civilian branch of law enforcement force, and internatioanl emergency aid sometimes needed at open seas - did that big ass main gun mounted on it which dwarfs some brown water NAVY, suitable to call it "civilian"?

While no need to point out "&&& is also doing the same", my point is, is there any international regulation defines the armament a civilian coastal guard ship can reach?

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

Red___Sword said:

I have a noob question:

While most of time the coast guards are considered as some kind of civilian branch of law enforcement force, and internatioanl emergency aid sometimes needed at open seas - did that big ass main gun mounted on it which dwarfs some brown water NAVY, suitable to call it "civilian"?

While no need to point out "&&& is also doing the same", my point is, is there any international regulation defines the armament a civilian coastal guard ship can reach?

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I don't know of any...but the US Coast Guard can also be called up for Naval service in war time, as it was during World War II. And with the increasing sophistication and armament of drug cartels, that level of 57mm gun would make the difference in a confrontation with a heavily armed, very rich drug cartel vessel that may have as big as a 20mm or 40mm weapon on it with RPGs, etc. or against will funded pirates or other crime elements.

The US Coast Guard is currently upgrading itself with these new cutters, three differents sizes, which have very modern comms and sensors, and better armament all around. The older large cutters actually had 5" and 76mm guns, so the size gun is actually smaller...but the capabilities it offers in terms of munitions, accuracuy, firing rate, and even range, make it much more effective for the USCG normal duties, as well as for wartime should that be necessary,

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

CottageLV said:

I think all USN ships should be styled after the Independence Class, what a work of art. This ship is now probably on the wall of every boy by now.

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This is a very expensive design and I don't consider the cost worth the benefit that could be achieved by simpler means.
Using the proven cutter design is a very cost effective approach that can compete with the LCS and replace escort ships.

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

Kurt said:

This is a very expensive design and I don't consider the cost worth the benefit that could be achieved by simpler means.
Using the proven cutter design is a very cost effective approach that can compete with the LCS and replace escort ships.

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In addition, they are already testing a new huull design that is alos very modern in the Zunmwalt DDG which may also be used for the eventual CGX.

I don't expect to see too much proliferation of the Independence design. They alread have a couple of other similar vessels in fast logistics vessels, but additional combatants are not as likely IMHO.

The Freedom class has some innovations of its own in the hull, though it is more traditional. But the new vessel shown here has take the path of imitating the US Coast Guard design, which is a very good, traditional hull. Although there is, in truth, also offerings from Lockheed and GD for LCS variants of the vessel too.

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

In the US Naval Institute Proceedings for this month they had a great discussion about the need for a new USN FFG in between the LCS and Burkes. They showed a proposal for a 4,500t FFG with the two Harpoon cannister launchers, an MK-41 VLS, a 76mm or 127mm main gun, a couple of 25-40mm auto cannons for secondary guns, a RAM launcher (21 cell variety) and a hanger for a full sized Lamps III helo.


That's a sweet looking FFG and something the US should build in some numbers IMHO. Better than the above mentioned and shown patrol ship proposals, IMHO too.

In essence, with the Type 54A the PLAN is already doing this over the last 6-7 years and are building more...as well as pumping out modern DDGs about as fast.

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

Jeff Head said:

In addition, they are already testing a new huull design that is alos very modern in the Zunmwalt DDG which may also be used for the eventual CGX.

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Wasn't that idea cancelled years ago, and the USN now plans to have arleigh burkes extended to a third flight to act as future "cruisers" equipped with AMDR?

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Mhmm that is indeed a nice looking frigate, reminds me a lot of 054A and should be something the USN builds in mass -- however such construction would result in a smaller DDG force I think, which is not a bad thing. You don't need your principle surface combatants to all be equipped with SPY-1s or 96 VLS cells, or displace 9000 tons.

Personally I think arleigh burkes are a little too overpowered for the numbers the are in service in; a three tier system of 9-10k ton cruisers/ddgs and smaller 7000 ton ddgs, and 4-5k ton ffgs would be an optimal surface combatant composition for a large blue water navy imo.

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

Bltizo said:

Wasn't that idea cancelled years ago, and the USN now plans to have arleigh burkes extended to a third flight to act as future "cruisers" equipped with AMDR?

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Mhmm that is indeed a nice looking frigate, reminds me a lot of 054A and should be something the USN builds in mass -- however such construction would result in a smaller DDG force I think, which is not a bad thing. You don't need your principle surface combatants to all be equipped with SPY-1s or 96 VLS cells, or displace 9000 tons.

Personally I think arleigh burkes are a little too overpowered for the numbers the are in service in; a three tier system of 9-10k ton cruisers/ddgs and smaller 7000 ton ddgs, and 4-5k ton ffgs would be an optimal surface combatant composition for a large blue water navy imo.

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The LCS are going to be built, at least 24 of them, and maybe 32, split between the two types. The new Burkes are going to be built as a bridge to the next generation CGs which are still on the drawing board. These will be larger, more heavily armed Burkes along the lines of the KDX-IIIs and will really be "bridge" cruisers.

What the US Navy is lacking is a future FFG combatant and this is the latest proposal to match the Partol Boat proposal from Lockheed shown early in this thread.

I like this design better. More heavily armed but still light. Using technology arleady in production but also allowing for some growth. IMO, the US should build a good 24 of these vessels. Then, with the LCS, a new FFG, the Burke DDGs and the newer Burks replacing the aging CGs, and with the new Virginia Class SSNs coming on, you have a very effective group of support combatants for the new San Antonios, America/Wasps and Ford class CVNs.

I'd like to see the US Navy build 24-30 modern AIP SSs as well for the Littorals. IMHO a Virginia is simply too expensive to risk there.

Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

"Bridge" cruisers?

I'm not as up to date as others on USN ship development, but I'm quite certain the CG(X) based on zumwalt was cancelled, and the replacement would be flight iii ABs (in that time frame). Hasn't there even been suggestion of extending to a flight iv AB which will lead this type of ship well into the middle of this century?

¦^��: Re: US Navy Patrol Frigate Design shown at DIMDEX by Ingalls

Bltizo said:

"Bridge" cruisers?

I'm not as up to date as others on USN ship development, but I'm quite certain the CG(X) based on zumwalt was cancelled, and the replacement would be flight iii ABs (in that time frame). Hasn't there even been suggestion of extending to a flight iv AB which will lead this type of ship well into the middle of this century?

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The next flight Burkes will be the bridge. Still not clear how many of those will be built.

But something like the CGX will ultimately be designed and built.

It may end up being, in essence a Burke flight IV, but at that point, to incorporate the new tech developments and lessons learned at that time, the current hull and physical design mat constrain them too much.

Depending on the admin and congress, And depending on how the three vessels planned do, i would not be surprised to see more zumwalts built...and maybe ultimately a CG version for AAW yet.