Lecture - Red Flag 2008

An interesting lecture given at Red Flag 2008 - comparing the performance of the USAF pilots flying F-15s and F-16s to the Indian Air Force pilots in the Su-30MKI. The lecture video is in two parts.




Basically, it looks as if the USAF has learned-out tactics for handling the post-stall performance of the Su-30MKI, since the Cope India 2004 exercise where US F-15s faired to poorly. It also helps that in 2004 the IAF was sending their elite pilots to the exercise, whereas in Red Flag 2008 they sent a standard, operational unit. The video also provides some insight on the Raptor.

Well worth listening to.

He makes a point suggesting that it was the in-experience of MKI pilots that got them killed. If that gets taken care of, they can easily take care of F-15/16-teens.

The part about serviceability of their Sukhoi's is interesting; send their engines back to Russia to be worked on is not very conducive to fleet reliability. It also means the Indian technicians are going to have limited knowledge on the very aircraft they are supposed to work on. The engines being susceptible to FOD and being not very reliable is also a major issue that I see.

Pointblank said:

The part about serviceability of their Sukhoi's is interesting; send their engines back to Russia to be worked on is not very conducive to fleet reliability.

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Don't forget that these are the same engines the equip China's Su-27/Su-30/J-11 fleet, as well as the J-10. I'm sure that Russia has attempted to minimize China's ability to service their engines in precisely the same way as they did with India.

Read some Indian message boards about the Indian military. The Indians there said the Indian pilots did not use their best pilots, best missiles, limited their radar's abilities, limited their datalink functions, and were trying to lengthen the lifespan of their jets (hence the long wait time between jets taking off).

Lots of people took part in this exercise and a few opinions do not show the full picture.

Infra_Man99 said:

Read some Indian message boards about the Indian military.

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I have also read the Indian message boards. I believe the USAF lecturer accurately covered this, and freely acknowledged that with more experience, the Indian pilots would have been able to overcome the tactical errors that they made at Red Flag.

As the lecturer says, in Cope India 2004 a regular, operational USAF unit was soundly defeated by the elite among India's fighter pilots. I could add that those Indian pilots did not have the thrust-vectoring version of the Su-30. At Red Flag 2008, it was a regular, operational Indian Air Force unit that faced the elite of the USAF's Fighter Weapons School. Guess what? The Indians lost.

It would be a mistake to suggest that the IAF pilots lost because they weren't trying to win, or didn't use their best electronics and weaponry. For the IAF to send their best warplane to Red Flag, only to have it trounced by USAF and other fighters, seriously erodes their deterrent capability in the face of their Pakistani neighbors. The IAF did not intentionally send their most capable warplane to be defeated. They just underestimated the very real difference between an elite air force unit (like the USAF Fighter Weapons School, or India's own best and brightest pilots for that matter), and a typical, operational unit that includes both experienced and green pilots.

The bottom line is that training and experience still matters, no matter how superior your weapons system might be.

How did you know the Indians did not use their best equipment and made full use of their equipment? Were you at the training? Can you provide evidence that the Indians used their best equipment and made full use of their equipment?

To assume that each nation sends its best and does its best at every international training event is false. The US did not send its best pilots, best equipment , and made full use of their equipment in the previous jetfighter event between India and the US.

unknauthr said:

Don't forget that these are the same engines the equip China's Su-27/Su-30/J-11 fleet, as well as the J-10. I'm sure that Russia has attempted to minimize China's ability to service their engines in precisely the same way as they did with India.

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That's what came up in my mind too.

Not sure if I understood it correctly from watching the video, the Indians requested that there be a minimum time and space distance between takeoffs to avoid FOD which in real war situation would screw with their response time. We've seen two J-10s taking off at once.

Also didn't India have a license to build their own engines?

unknauthr said:

Don't forget that these are the same engines the equip China's Su-27/Su-30/J-11 fleet, as well as the J-10. I'm sure that Russia has attempted to minimize China's ability to service their engines in precisely the same way as they did with India.

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China however, bargained that the right to service and overhaul the AL-31Fs as part of the overall contract for the Su-27s and J-11s. At first, the engines have to be sent back to Russia, but around 2003-2004, the ability to overhaul the engines domestically was achieved.

The AL-31FN engines for the J-10 belongs to a separate contract with the J-10s and China demanded the overhaul rights too.

The counter from Bharat-Rakshak



Page. 19 posted by shiv

On Ex Red Flag-the You Tube video- The other side of the Coin!!
Posted by: *** ***
Date: Wed Nov 5, 2008 11:51 pm ((PST))

These are comments by a friend of mine-one of our top grade professional youngsters, and a participant in the recently concluded Red Flag Ex in Nellis AFB.

1. No 1vs1s were flown during the Flag,nor did they engage in Thrust Vectoring(TV) then.IvIs were flown during the sorties in Mountain Home AFB and that too on the first day only! In none of these ex were the Su ever shot down or become vulnerable(This can of course be checked on the ACMI Pod films/casettes).

2.The data rates of turn and TV with regard to the Su is grossly out- the ones on the F-22 may be closer to the truth!! The figures for the Su are very much more than that referred to in the video!!

3.The Radar of the F-22 is superior to the Su presently!

4.Fratricide by our side did take place, more due to not being networked-it occurred when the AWACS was not available(u/s) and a very poor standard of controlling by USAF controllers( terminology and accent).This was mentioned in the debrief.Surprisingly, Fratricide was present for the F-15C as well as other allied A/C. Considering that they were better networked( Link-16,IFF-Mode 4 etc), while we had nothing,it should be a matter of concern for them and not us!!

5.FOD-Take-Off separation-was 30" at Mountain Home but extended to 1min and known to all participants before the start of the Ex!!

6.Incidentally,Mission achievement ratio was higher than 90%, whereas the mission success rates were significantly lower for the USAF, inspite of us op some 20000 kms away!!

7.Our level of experience was a standard Sqn cross-section and our youngsters performed very well in the new environment and not one rule was violated.Our professional approach was very favourably commented upon.

8. In the ultimate analyses, we had a significant edge all throughout and retained it.

It appears that this video was to pep up the US industry, showing that the F-22 is the answer to the Su-30MKI and one never knows-this will be the pitch for larger orders!!