Ladakh Flash Point

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Bright Sword

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I don't think it's racism. Indians have no problem kowtowing to Japanese or Koreans. Just insecure and indoctrinated by whitewashed media.
That's it.
They do have a problem. Indians however never take on a Western backed entity. Koreans and Japanese are from Western backed nations.
Indians never bow to Nepalese even though they share a common religion.
Nepalese are looked on with disdain and contempt. Even Gurkhas serving in the Indian armed forces are confined to their regiment, with a Gurkha officer serving in his regiment only. It is rare for a Gurkha officer to be commanding troops of a different regiment ( Example: Jats).
There are derogatory names for Nepalese in the Hindi language based on their facial appearance.
 

Bright Sword

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Indira Gandhi more or less had a cult following during her time, Imagine what would happen to Uyghurs across China if some Uyghur bodyguards shot Mao at the height of Cultural Revolution well that's pretty much what Sikhs had to endure

Rajiv Gandhi was admired but there was no blind worshipping involved he could be considered the Deng Xiaoping of India as such the entire political and media environment emulated his pragmatism
M.K.Ghandhi assassin was a brahmin and Indian bureaucracy was pretty much a brahmin run entity due to historic reasons and Nehru wanted harmony inside India at that time there were already regional secessionary sentiments based on ethnic (South India), Linguistic (West Bengal)and religious (Punjab) grounds the last thing he wanted to add Caste/Community into that list so the culprit was promptly hanged and decided to call it a day
Calcutta incident is not unlike what happened in South East Asia the Chinese were more successful than the locals and they in turn were jealous, When sh*t hit the fan local politicians decided to make their careers out of it

I am not sure such as scenario as we see in India is repeated anywhere in the world. Irish terrorists assassinated Lord Louis Mountbatten Viceroy of India, second cousin to the Queen of England. There were no reprisals on Irish communities in the UK.
It is a wrong assumption that Uyghurs would be persecuted because of the actions of a few. There have been terrorist attacks in Xinjiang but nowhere in China have there been reprisals on Uyghurs. India is different.,
Quite recently Kashmiris were beaten and lynched all over India because of terrorist attacks on Indian security forces in their state. A singular way to deal with citizens of the "unbreakable part" of India.

I don't see the justification of the lynching of any innocent person, whether Uyghur, Chinese, Brahmin, Irish or Tamil.
That thousands should be punished for the acts of a few is incomprehensible.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agree. India has an internal challenge that it must address.
The ruling party in India has problems with 15% of its population.
1. This population segment is an impediment to the reshaping of India's cultural identity.
2. Unlike the majority population the base of the cultural and religious identity of this population segment lies outside the boundaries of India.
3. Historically this population segment are foreign invaders who entered India from elsewhere and have been the cause for much cultural damage and humiliation to India.,
4. This population segment is responsible for the vivisection of India and the secession of two large portions of territory that are hostile to India.
5. The population is a "fifth column" for India's prime enemy nation.
6. Before India can fight its external adversaries this population segment must be eliminated or removed.
7. New laws have therefore been made to declare 15% of the population as non-citizens.
8.The goal towards removal of this population segment is in the following phases:
8.1 Removal of this population segment from the citizen's registers.
8.2 Disenfranchisement from the political process.
8.3. Complete withdrawal of the rights to judicial appeal, food rations and termination of jobs, confiscation of property, businesses and all movable assets.
8.4. Incarceration of the population with efforts to expel it to neighboring nations.
8.5. Implementation of a back up plan in case of a refusal by neighboring territories to accept the expulsion of the population. The back up plan is elimination of the population.
Sounds pretty similar to something that already happened once in history. We can add the gas chamber bit to complete the list.
 

kahi

New Member
Registered Member
Not necessarily. The $25 per day motel and gas station owners with one last name are not very well educated and represent a far more sinister side of India in money laundering. The money managed by a mafia goes to fund lobbyists in the country as well as funding fascist outfits both in India and abroad. Their host country is aware but not concerned about their activities. The incumbent head of state is pretty comfortable with fascists, both at home and in India.
As between a poor illegal immigrant seeking survival, and a fascist money laundering motel owner funding savage pogroms, the choice is obvious.
Oh dear, I hope I haven't been financing fascism by being cheap.
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sounds pretty similar to something that already happened once in history. We can add the gas chamber bit to complete the list.
Yes, but they are not as efficient as the Germans, and the population to be removed is much larger.,
Of the 4,000 concentration camps needed, only a dozen have been completed so far mainly in the province of Assam. The province of Uttar Pradesh which has the largest "unwanted population" is trying to complete another 20 camps. Amongst the honored "guests " in the Assam camps are immediate and extended family members of the earst while President of India ( luckily he has moved on.), as well as the extended family members of the former premier of Assam state ( incidentally one of the first female minority state premieres in India). In 2019 the recently retired Vice-President of India on a visit to his University Alma Mater narrowly escaped being lynched. Apparently he might end up being a "guest " at the "detention camps " as well.
 

reservior dogs

Junior Member
Registered Member
The broader strategic objective is to keep the boarder conflict open indefinitely, to provide the pretext for military action against India should Chinese leaders determine that is necessary
I think even if no invasion is planned, indefinite and limited hostility at the border cost almost nothing for the Chinese and would be a major drag for the Indian economy in the longer run.
 

Chish

Junior Member
Registered Member
Nothing unusual there, Chinese people have been discriminated abroad for centuries, whether massacred by Suharto's regime in Indonesia in the 1990s, Singapore being kicked out of Malaysia in 1960s because of its Chineseness, and the racism faced in the West etc etc. What is ironic is that Indians claim China stole its rightful place. I don't think China colonized India and used Indians as troops for its empire. Yet they don't claim that particular empire for stealing their historical place as a strong country. Hmm, the logic here...

View attachment 64793
I known this is going off topic. But
It is more correct to say Lee kuan yew kick Malaysia out of Singapore. After his experience at the Malaysian parliament he decided Singapore must go alone.
 

Inst

Captain
There isn't a single Indian analyst who has the slightest clue about China, the World, and how and where India fits in between. I know this is a bold claim but after decades of reading the absolute pablum that is churned out by the Indian 'strategic community', I had to reach this conclusion.

It is entirely focused on geopolitics, that too hilariously wrong. And only the last paragraph will be left for economy. When it should be the opposite.

Their economic theories are equally moronic. Anything goes wrong, privatize. Law and order? What? Contract enforcement? Huh? Baseline infra? Labor and land? Well.... Education? Privatize!

Americans will talk about trade and sanctions. But no American will claim that Dalai Lama can be used as a leverage against China in 2020. Yet this is practically a staple theme in Indian writings. Now if they said that India can fund a Tibetan militia to physically attack China, that would be one thing (results notwithstanding). But they don't even say that! You ask them - "No no no! We are talking diplomatic pressure on China, internationally :rolleyes:. That's all." Ya that will sure work.

In the similar vein, you have Quad, or Pentad, or whatever. Indians will fight China to the last American. America will fight China to the last Viet. Vietnam will fight China to the last Indian. It's the perfect alliance.



Nowhere in this thread I claimed Brahmins aren't powerful in India. I said they are not dominant alone. Circlejerking about 'Brahmins' alone will get you in a dead end. Even Dalits and Muslims understand this.

Secondly profession is no longer a marker of caste in India. This isn't 500 AD. Brahmins' job profiles span from security guard, to cowbelt mafia to ISRO chairman. Same for other castes. Caste in present times is entirely hereditary.

And therein lies the irony. You are constantly harping about Kshatriyas as if they are this meritocratic group of people with special professional skills, when in reality they too are another entirely hereditary caste. And therefore, while talking anti-caste ideology, you are actually legitimizing pro-caste ideology.



Do you seriously think that Brahmins who aren't doctors, are all sitting inside their homes, doors locked, for last 8 months? And other castes running the show?



You will have to start your research here -
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Actually, I'd push that you're not well-informed about Indian history, and that you might be well-served by both reading Indian and overseas histories of India.

The caste system is partially blamed on the British because the caste system ossified under their rule to make India simpler to govern. When you bring up A.D 500, well, I can bring up Harsha, an Indian king of North India in around A.D. 600, who happened to be a Brahmin. The Nandas who preceded the Mauryas, in contrast, were also Shudra by varna, and well, the histories seem to have been quite cruel to them. We are unsure whether this is because they were just plain brutal and incompetent, or hated because of their caste.

Another example is when I'm talking about Kshatriya domination over Brahmins as an alternative. The real reason I dislike Brahmins is that when I look at Indian history, I have a very tough time seeing any redeeming features; and to avoid strict Indophobia, I note that the history is written mostly by Brahmins (Puranas) and that they've provided the ideological justification for the Caste system and all the backward elements in various Indian cultures. But North Indian Kshatriya actually have socioeconomic dominance over Brahmins in their region. Not only are they not present at all in Tamil Nadu and parts of the Indian south, but they're actually socioeconomically dominant up there in North India. Despite that, what we are still seeing is the preservation of caste as well as backward features of Indian society, so Kshatriya alone are not a solution for India. But you didn't even pick up on Kshatriya domination in North India.

===

As far as the failure of Brahmins go, my criticism of my Brahmin friend is over his refusal to get his hands dirty, I've brought this up as a criticism of Brahmins insofar as Chinese Shidafu / Scholar-Literati did the same damn thing in the past, devaluing physical labor. The gentleman definitely did his job as a GoI employee, but the criticism is basically over Kshatriya values, i.e, putting himself into the real danger of contracting COVID-19.

IIRC, there was a gentleman in India who despite his FC status, was also the head of an Indian food charity. This man apparently personally delivered food to the families camped outside the hospitals treating their loved ones. What I can't remember, unfortunately (this news story was months back), is whether he was a Kshatriya or a Brahmin, but he was either one. If it was the latter, it was definitely an exception to my criticism, but if it was the former...

===

As to other comments, my interest in India basically began after Galwan, when I found that the state of Sino-Indian relations, given the attempts to make the Quad a thing, required in-depth research on India. I worked my way through 4 different popular history books and textbooks on India, including Romila Thapar's Marxist history on India, and began reading the Upanishads as well as the Bhagavad Gita (protip: stop bandering it around. Quite a few, but only a few, Indian intellectuals have actually skewered it as plain puerile, and while it has obviously positive aspects, the logic, the justification, and the implicit doctrines underlying it are horrific). Before my research began, I had this conception of India as being the "spiritual" and "intellectual" high water mark of human achievement. What I actually found was disturbing and depressing. The entirety of Indian history, to me, seemed to have been caste oppression this, caste oppression that, as well as an endless succession of badly run polities (barring perhaps the Cholas) that blew themselves up in political infighting within the monarchies. When i looked at the Upanishads, coming from a philosophical Taoist background (Zhuangzi, primarily, and when you look at philosophical Taoism it's the high water mark of Chinese philosophical achievement), I found it extremely casteist and vaguely fascist. And if you look at the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, you find sections that use marital rape and incest as creating the world, or sections that implore the devotee to rape. I was expecting both a lot less and a lot more!

To describe this experience, I have to think about Lu Xun's A Madman's Diary, wherein a disaffected intellectual has a break in reality, opens his histories, and declares all Chinese history "cannibalism". The joke is that he eventually recovers and returns to his duty, but when Lu Xun wrote it, "cannibalism" was intended as a metaphor, i.e, the thesis of exploitation. Reading Indian histories and textbooks, both Western and Indian, gave me the same feeling!

Likewise, if I am referring to Lu Xun and his disavowal of Chinese tradition as well as a search for modernity, I have to say I'm extremely critical of traditional Chinese culture. Coming from this perspective, when I start reading about India, the critical attitude just magnify further, and I have to suspect that all of Indian history might be summarized by the term "rape".

===

The next move was finally reading Ambedekar's "The Annihilation of Caste", and realizing how well he explained to me what I found offensive in reading about India. This drove a search for means to drive the Annihilation of Caste in a realistic way, as opposed to just simply trying to enforce caste-blindness (race blindness in the United States does not work either because of socioeconomic factors of privilege). My first idea was that perhaps left Kshatriya could be the saving grace, since unlike Brahmins they're less tainted by the caste system in using political and military power as the basis of their privilege. But as noted above, the Kshatriya-dominated North India has been a failure, perhaps because Kshatriya were too right-wing and unwilling to make a real alliance with Shudras. The current conclusion I am moving toward is OBCs and Shudras, since Shudras have the numbers to be politically dominant; the Dalits are often more radicalized, but they are in too low numbers to make a real change.

The actual path forward for me is to find a non-Brahmin and a non-Kshatriya history of India, i.e, to find Indian histories that are focused not on the religious movements (feudal) or state developments (stupid) of India, but rather the living and achievements of Shudras and forest tribes. It's a typically Marxist approach, is it not?
 

Bright Sword

Junior Member
Registered Member
Actually, I'd push that you're not well-informed about Indian history, and that you might be well-served by both reading Indian and overseas histories of India.

The caste system is partially blamed on the British because the caste system ossified under their rule to make India simpler to govern. When you bring up A.D 500, well, I can bring up Harsha, an Indian king of North India in around A.D. 600, who happened to be a Brahmin. The Nandas who preceded the Mauryas, in contrast, were also Shudra by varna, and well, the histories seem to have been quite cruel to them. We are unsure whether this is because they were just plain brutal and incompetent, or hated because of their caste.

Another example is when I'm talking about Kshatriya domination over Brahmins as an alternative. The real reason I dislike Brahmins is that when I look at Indian history, I have a very tough time seeing any redeeming features; and to avoid strict Indophobia, I note that the history is written mostly by Brahmins (Puranas) and that they've provided the ideological justification for the Caste system and all the backward elements in various Indian cultures. But North Indian Kshatriya actually have socioeconomic dominance over Brahmins in their region. Not only are they not present at all in Tamil Nadu and parts of the Indian south, but they're actually socioeconomically dominant up there in North India. Despite that, what we are still seeing is the preservation of caste as well as backward features of Indian society, so Kshatriya alone are not a solution for India. But you didn't even pick up on Kshatriya domination in North India.

===

As far as the failure of Brahmins go, my criticism of my Brahmin friend is over his refusal to get his hands dirty, I've brought this up as a criticism of Brahmins insofar as Chinese Shidafu / Scholar-Literati did the same damn thing in the past, devaluing physical labor. The gentleman definitely did his job as a GoI employee, but the criticism is basically over Kshatriya values, i.e, putting himself into the real danger of contracting COVID-19.

IIRC, there was a gentleman in India who despite his FC status, was also the head of an Indian food charity. This man apparently personally delivered food to the families camped outside the hospitals treating their loved ones. What I can't remember, unfortunately (this news story was months back), is whether he was a Kshatriya or a Brahmin, but he was either one. If it was the latter, it was definitely an exception to my criticism, but if it was the former...

===

As to other comments, my interest in India basically began after Galwan, when I found that the state of Sino-Indian relations, given the attempts to make the Quad a thing, required in-depth research on India. I worked my way through 4 different popular history books and textbooks on India, including Romila Thapar's Marxist history on India, and began reading the Upanishads as well as the Bhagavad Gita (protip: stop bandering it around. Quite a few, but only a few, Indian intellectuals have actually skewered it as plain puerile, and while it has obviously positive aspects, the logic, the justification, and the implicit doctrines underlying it are horrific). Before my research began, I had this conception of India as being the "spiritual" and "intellectual" high water mark of human achievement. What I actually found was disturbing and depressing. The entirety of Indian history, to me, seemed to have been caste oppression this, caste oppression that, as well as an endless succession of badly run polities (barring perhaps the Cholas) that blew themselves up in political infighting within the monarchies. When i looked at the Upanishads, coming from a philosophical Taoist background (Zhuangzi, primarily, and when you look at philosophical Taoism it's the high water mark of Chinese philosophical achievement), I found it extremely casteist and vaguely fascist. And if you look at the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, you find sections that use marital rape and incest as creating the world, or sections that implore the devotee to rape. I was expecting both a lot less and a lot more!

To describe this experience, I have to think about Lu Xun's A Madman's Diary, wherein a disaffected intellectual has a break in reality, opens his histories, and declares all Chinese history "cannibalism". The joke is that he eventually recovers and returns to his duty, but when Lu Xun wrote it, "cannibalism" was intended as a metaphor, i.e, the thesis of exploitation. Reading Indian histories and textbooks, both Western and Indian, gave me the same feeling!

Likewise, if I am referring to Lu Xun and his disavowal of Chinese tradition as well as a search for modernity, I have to say I'm extremely critical of traditional Chinese culture. Coming from this perspective, when I start reading about India, the critical attitude just magnify further, and I have to suspect that all of Indian history might be summarized by the term "rape".

===

The next move was finally reading Ambedekar's "The Annihilation of Caste", and realizing how well he explained to me what I found offensive in reading about India. This drove a search for means to drive the Annihilation of Caste in a realistic way, as opposed to just simply trying to enforce caste-blindness (race blindness in the United States does not work either because of socioeconomic factors of privilege). My first idea was that perhaps left Kshatriya could be the saving grace, since unlike Brahmins they're less tainted by the caste system in using political and military power as the basis of their privilege. But as noted above, the Kshatriya-dominated North India has been a failure, perhaps because Kshatriya were too right-wing and unwilling to make a real alliance with Shudras. The current conclusion I am moving toward is OBCs and Shudras, since Shudras have the numbers to be politically dominant; the Dalits are often more radicalized, but they are in too low numbers to make a real change.

The actual path forward for me is to find a non-Brahmin and a non-Kshatriya history of India, i.e, to find Indian histories that are focused not on the religious movements (feudal) or state developments (stupid) of India, but rather the living and achievements of Shudras and forest tribes. It's a typically Marxist approach, is it not?
Actually there are a number of stories in Indian mythology showing the interaction of the Kshatriyas and Brahmins. There is a bit of an overlap in martial prowess.
Wikipedia has a detailed page on Bhishma who led Kauravas in World War 0.
Imparting military training was reserved only for Brahmins and Kshatriyas. Wikipedia has done a wonderful job explaining this.
If you look up Eklavya, and his story you will see how as a self taught archer was beguiled into loosing his thumb so he could no longer use his bow. He was forced to do this because of his low tribal caste since he could not acquire proficiencies in handling of weapons.
Guru Drona ( Look up Wikipedia) ensured that and the prince Arjun he was training would remain the best archer in the realm.
This concept of Kshatriyas and Brahmins being the only ones entitled to military training, was a severe handicap in India's military capabilities. Since only the Kshatriyas and Brahmins were divinely ordained to fight, the rest of the population were incapable and indeed disinterested in fighting. They felt it was " not their job".
When the Kshatriyas failed India failed.
There was no People’s Resistance. The colonial Indian Army under British tutelage was a mercenary force of Kshatriyas and other "martial races", a culture which it retains till today. The only time a real People's Army was attempted devoid of race, religion and culture was during World War 2 by the Subhas Bose called the The Indian National Army comprised of POWs taken by Imperialist Japan, Japan hoped to use the INA as a fifth column to penetrate British ruled India. The INA wanted to use Japan's armed forces to weaken the British into relinquishing India. Ironically post independence the Indian Army didn't like the INAs anti- colonial and pan- combat capabilities stance. The INA had within its ranks all castes including "low caste " Indian origin rubber plantation workers. It was no wonder that the INA was quickly disbanded and the officers and men dismissed and banned from joining the newly independent Indian Armed Forces.
One element of the INA that did rejoin their parent armed forces were those from the area now constituting Pakistan.
They joined the newly formed Pakistan Armed Forces. One reason was that the newly formed PA has no caste or martial law elements.
 
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