Ladakh Flash Point

Status
Not open for further replies.
I

Inst

Captain
reservior dogs said:
In my work, I have known many Brahmins and many are smart people. I think at the end, it should be a meritocracy. People get the job based on performance regardless of caste.
When China was first found in 1949, the communists nationalized all the land and factories. My grandpa was one who was considered a landlord and land taken from him. It was a cruel process for those who own land and ran factories. This did remove the many special interest groups that would later block changes unfavorable to them. Unfortunately for India, when it was first found, the merchant class and big landlords survived intact.
As a country develops, there will always be special interests that opposed to progress. Land owners who do not want to see a road built on their land, factory owners who did not want to move because they are sitting on valuable property. Over the years, India also created weird laws like if a farmer had farmed a piece of land for ten years, then he can take the land from the owner. There is no accountability to the overall good of the public.
To break all this logjam, there need to be a revolutionary type that will forcibly take all these from people who own it and start over again. Otherwise inertia will set in soon and India will slow down due to the "low Income Trap". Unfortunately, I just don't see that happening. The system is already in place the many who are rich also wield a lot of power.
Lee Kwan Yew once said that the potential for India is 60% of China. That is under the best scenario. I just don't see that happening in the next fifty years. If anything, it is more likely that stagnation under a low growth mode. In one to two decades, the large and unskilled population of India will no longer be much of an asset due to advances in automation and AI. Those that are plugged into the Chinese manufacturing eco-system will prosper. With all the antagonism towards China, India is burning the only road it has to prosperity.
Click to expand...

The difference between Indians overseas (who are mostly Brahmins) and Indians themselves in India is significant. Outside of India, Indians suffer less from the caste system; they're all Brahmins anyways (except for the few Shudra or Dalits who face discrimination).

It's like overseas Chinese vs Chinese themselves during the colonial era; overseas Chinese tended to be progressive and entrepreneurial, whereas vast numbers of Chinese in China at the time were addicted to opium. There's both a selection effect (if you're an opium addict you're unlikely to emigrate) and an acculturation effect (the traditions are weaker among overseas communities than in the homeland).

Among Indians, there's a vast perception that Indians themselves are stupid, that the society doesn't actually function, and it's a social mess. Beyond the DFI (Bharat Rashak seemed to have become less jingoistic over time) crowd crowing about the superiority of India on this forum, when you go to Indians talking among themselves they'll gladly admit the panoply of Indian social, economic, and political problems.

===

The difference between China and India is the absence of a truly progressive, modernizing class in India. The closest you'll get are Kshatriyas in business. Brahmins will often spout internationalist platitudes, but how willing are they to break the caste system upon which their own power relies? And when I talk of a Kshatriya-Shudra alliance, I'm not saying that the caste system should perpetuate itself, but what you'd see instead is an alliance of progressive elites (Kshatriya in practice are as conservative as any other Indian) and the downtrodden working class to break the Caste system as well as dangerous or damaging Indian traditions.
 
N

N00B

New Member
Registered Member
Inst said:
Bharat Rashak seemed to have become less jingoistic over time
Click to expand...

Less? It's was and remains the largest collection of lobotomized individuals on internet.

Inst said:
The difference between China and India is the absence of a truly progressive, modernizing class in India. The closest you'll get are Kshatriyas in business. Brahmins will often spout internationalist platitudes, but how willing are they to break the caste system upon which their own power relies? And when I talk of a Kshatriya-Shudra alliance, I'm not saying that the caste system should perpetuate itself, but what you'd see instead is an alliance of progressive elites (Kshatriya in practice are as conservative as any other Indian) and the downtrodden working class to break the Caste system as well as dangerous or damaging Indian traditions.
Click to expand...

What on earth are you on about? Kshatriyas are an upper caste. Since when they become 'left and progressive'? Why on earth would they ally with Shudras, the lowest caste? Why would the Brahmins and Vaishyas accept a 'Kshatriya-Shudra alliance' lording over them? Why would non-Hindus give a shit about it? How will this alliance get to power? Why would anyone give a shit about 'Kshatriya-Shudra alliance' when there are numerous national entrance exams to chose the best candidate? How will they get to the 'same wavelength as China'? Why is this shit being upvoted?

I have never read something this inane in my entire life and that include a sizable amount of writings by Indians.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
N00B said:
Less? It's was and remains the largest collection of lobotomized individuals on internet.



What on earth are you on about? Kshatriyas are an upper caste. Since when they become 'left and progressive'? Why on earth would they ally with Shudras, the lowest caste? Why would the Brahmins and Vaishyas accept a 'Kshatriya-Shudra alliance' lording over them? Why would non-Hindus give a shit about it? How will this alliance get to power? Why would anyone give a shit about 'Kshatriya-Shudra alliance' when there are numerous national entrance exams to chose the best candidate? How will they get to the 'same wavelength as China'? Why is this shit being upvoted?

I have never read something this inane in my entire life and that include a sizable amount of writings by Indians.
Click to expand...

Inst has a habit of assuming wildly inaccurate and often completely incorrect things and then make inconsistent but amusingly confident conclusions built off those bad assumptions. Many times his own writing is directly contradictory. Can rarely back any of his nonsense up with even a slight explanation.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
N00B said:
Bangladesh have picked up the correct track. It turns out you don't really need to rack your brain over economic policy. Just pick light manufacturing if you are a beginner. Shoes and RMG is all that you need to do wonders. It's the perfect choice. Doesn't take massive amount of land. Highly labor intensive, that too semi-skilled. And not very energy hungry (like steel for example). Indian policymakers aimed too high and fell flat on their face.

I am not reading too much into the per capita figure in current year. The nominal figure distorts the real condition. For one, Bangladesh' population is under-counted in these measures. Then there are a number of telltale metrics that give away the real story. Electricity consumption is less than half of India. Car ownership is one fourth! Capital city Dhaka, a city of 18 million, doesn't have an inch of mass rapid transit. I would say Bangladesh is only about half as affluent as India today. But what matters is the underlying strength. Bangladesh will get closer to India by 2030.

India's present far right government is way out of its depth and has completely tanked the economy (even before the pandemic). Their hare-brained economic policies will keep slowing India down.

Indians have similar delusions about their own independence as well. They too think they 'won' it on their own. This is actually a key factor that can explain the difference between China and India. CPC legitimacy is far stronger because it's built by blood and iron. India-Pak-BD is sophistry.
Click to expand...

Well, even Meiji Japan had figured that out in the XIXth century. You start with light industry. South Korea also started like that.
Still, given its poverty level, Bangladesh is making some major investments. Like they are building 2x1.2 GWe nuclear power plants.
Given the population density they have, like more population than Japan in like half the land area, they don't have that many options available. Also AFAIK Bangladesh is flood prone and that clearly has a negative impact on their development. Then there are issues like malaria. Supposedly they have a subway for the capital, Dhaka, on the planning stages.
At least they don't shut out Chinese investment like India does. I think they have better prospects than a lot of people give them credit for.
China also had basically no subways until a couple of decades back but they built them quickly. Once the initial design and licenses are achieved with modern tunnel boring machines you can build a subway relatively quickly.
I would never expect them to attain high car ownership because of the population density. It is simply impossible.

India is much larger and has failed or delayed a lot of major projects. You would expect a country with such a dependence on rail transport and large dense urban cores in clusters to have high-speed rail but they don't. Heck they don't even automate their existing railroads or increase their capacity. You would expect them to have at least double-decker carriages. Instead we see videos of people climbing on top of the ceiling of the train. This is simply not understandable.
 
N

N00B

New Member
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
Well, even Meiji Japan had figured that out in the XIXth century. You start with light industry. South Korea also started like that.
Still, given its poverty level, Bangladesh is making some major investments. Like they are building 2x1.2 GWe nuclear power plants.
Given the population density they have, like more population than Japan in like half the land area, they don't have that many options available. Also AFAIK Bangladesh is flood prone and that clearly has a negative impact on their development. Then there are issues like malaria. Supposedly they have a subway for the capital, Dhaka, on the planning stages.
At least they don't shut out Chinese investment like India does. I think they have better prospects than a lot of people give them credit for.
China also had basically no subways until a couple of decades back but they built them quickly. Once the initial design and licenses are achieved with modern tunnel boring machines you can build a subway relatively quickly.
I would never expect them to attain high car ownership because of the population density. It is simply impossible.

India is much larger and has failed or delayed a lot of major projects. You would expect a country with such a dependence on rail transport and large dense urban cores in clusters to have high-speed rail but they don't. Heck they don't even automate their existing railroads or increase their capacity. You would expect them to have at least double-decker carriages. Instead we see videos of people climbing on top of the ceiling of the train. This is simply not understandable.
Click to expand...

The first line of Dhaka metro is under construction. Will probably open by 2023. 5-6 others are in planning stage. The nuclear power plants are a meme.
 
K

kahi

New Member
Registered Member
N00B said:
Bangladesh have picked up the correct track. It turns out you don't really need to rack your brain over economic policy. Just pick light manufacturing if you are a beginner. Shoes and RMG is all that you need to do wonders. It's the perfect choice. Doesn't take massive amount of land. Highly labor intensive, that too semi-skilled. And not very energy hungry (like steel for example). Indian policymakers aimed too high and fell flat on their face.

I am not reading too much into the per capita figure in current year. The nominal figure distorts the real condition. For one, Bangladesh' population is under-counted in these measures. Then there are a number of telltale metrics that give away the real story. Electricity consumption is less than half of India. Car ownership is one fourth! Capital city Dhaka, a city of 18 million, doesn't have an inch of mass rapid transit. I would say Bangladesh is only about half as affluent as India today. But what matters is the underlying strength. Bangladesh will get closer to India by 2030.

India's present far right government is way out of its depth and has completely tanked the economy (even before the pandemic). Their hare-brained economic policies will keep slowing India down.



Indians have similar delusions about their own independence as well. They too think they 'won' it on their own. This is actually a key factor that can explain the difference between China and India. CPC legitimacy is far stronger because it's built by blood and iron. India-Pak-BD is sophistry.
Click to expand...
I would add the construction of the padma bridge to all the low hanging fruits you mentioned that Bangladesh is picking. Also having two giant neighbors wooing is not a bad situation to be in.
 
G

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
kahi said:
I would add the construction of the padma bridge to all the low hanging fruits you mentioned that Bangladesh is picking. Also having two giant neighbors wooing is not a bad situation to be in.
Click to expand...

India could also have benefited from that attitude. Do you see the Russians doing that? They are quite prideful, but they still allow Chinese construction companies into the expansion of the Moscow subway, or use Chinese tools in the Zvezda shipyard, or even acquire Chinese marine diesel engines for their Buyan class corvettes. Now they know in the long term they will want to do it by themselves, if possible, but they don't kneecap themselves by wanting to bootstrap their economy from out of thin air like India does oh so often.

Russia has tried to integrate economically with India and China both. All those trilateral meetings. Eclipsed like that for mere political chicanery. A line in the middle of a desert. Which rock you have in the Himalayas. It gets tiresome. There is no reason to escalate. It is plain dumb. The best path for India is strategic ambiguity it is as simple as that.
 
ZeEa5KPul

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Inst has a habit of assuming wildly inaccurate and often completely incorrect things and then make inconsistent but amusingly confident conclusions built off those bad assumptions. Many times his own writing is directly contradictory. Can rarely back any of his nonsense up with even a slight explanation.
Click to expand...
He's the embodiment of the principle "garbage in, garbage out."
 
Sardaukar20

Sardaukar20

Captain
Registered Member
gelgoog said:
India could also have benefited from that attitude. Do you see the Russians doing that? They are quite prideful, but they still allow Chinese construction companies into the expansion of the Moscow subway, or use Chinese tools in the Zvezda shipyard, or even acquire Chinese marine diesel engines for their Buyan class corvettes. Now they know in the long term they will want to do it by themselves, if possible, but they don't kneecap themselves by wanting to bootstrap their economy from out of thin air like India does oh so often.

Russia has tried to integrate economically with India and China both. All those trilateral meetings. Eclipsed like that for mere political chicanery. A line in the middle of a desert. Which rock you have in the Himalayas. It gets tiresome. There is no reason to escalate. It is plain dumb. The best path for India is strategic ambiguity it is as simple as that.
Click to expand...
Well that is BJP India 2020.

This India snubs Russia's invitation to Kavkaz 2020 in Sept over 'Covid-19' (but we know its actually about China and some rocks in the himalayas). But before this, India had no problem doing joint naval exercises with the US in the Indian Ocean in July. Even despite at that time, the USA is the no.1 Covid-19 afflicted country in the world and have suffered Covid-19 cases among Navy personnel.

This India demanded Russia to hasten S-400 delivery. But then later announce an arms import restriction. Much of it being Russian arms imports.

This India wants to join the Quad. A loose alliance of countries hostile not only to China, but also to Russia. Then has the audacity to consider inviting Russia to join it.

India is trying to spoil the BRI, where Russia, China, and many countries have huge stakes. Over the same Himalayan rocks its trying to claim from Pakistan and China.

This is a country where its top leader says that cloud cover can hide IAF jets from Pakistani Radar.

This India is not lead by mature leaders, but by buffoons whose level of intellect is comparable to school children. The only country that knows how to treat them like kids is the USA. Offer them some candy and cheerlead them. And so easily, they are manipulated like the kids they are by good old Uncle Sam.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top