Ladakh Flash Point

BTW Twinneedle those satellite pictures show nothing. Just random mountain ranges with Indians putting labels here and there. The only reasonable piece of satellite image which shows anything is a PLA camp right next to a river at the Galwan side being flooded and the PLA moving away. This could be due to the 1km move back by both sides. But why is this singular isolated image being used to make the point that India has won? lol Well according to some Indians. Don't they understand this image is of a position about 10km inside of India's old claimed borders? So PLA has moved back 1km with the Indians to create the buffer but the important thing is the Ladakh disputed borderlines have now been settled by both sides in China's favour since the new borders are going by China's claims sans the 1km backing off.

This whole on the ground situation is remarkably simple when you drown out the different voices in Indian media and politics.

Both sides argued about a stretch of land between their set and mutually recognised borderlines. This stretch of land is claimed entirely by India (in the past) and claimed to the half way line more or less by China. China's claims has more or less been what the Indian military called the LAC because both sides have been doing patrols up to and beyond (to both sides) the LAC on occasion for the last 60 years. Now this has been settled relatively peacefully because India's military is certainly not able to deny the PLA firm action in just taking the claims.

What set things into motion for the CCP to settle their claim in China's favour? That's more interesting and full of speculation. It's agreed by many sensible people (read not Bhakts and Hindu nazis) that India's building up towards the LAC points and reinforcing the region with military in 2018 and 2019 could have driven the CCP into action. Combine this with what happened in Doklam in 2017 and India's unilateral changing of the status quo with respect to Kashmir, showed the CCP that India is getting very ambitious and daring under Modi. This needed to be checked and firm moves made. So you have PLA being asked to just take up what China's always claimed this whole time. If India wants to challenge it they can start shooting first. Due to the violence that erupted and India's refusal to militarily challenge China's firm moves in settling these disputes, the agreement was to create a 2km wide buffer zone with no military. Where is this buffer zone? Basically the old LAC more or less and right at the edge of China's claims, again this is 10km or so inside India's old claimed borders.

I think we can consider close this thread, I have a feeling that it is not going to create any more meaningful discussion as there are too many assumptions. I think China's focus currently is not at border, so they will play low key and won't provide much information except they suffer quite a lot.
Anyway it is sad to see these two countries with such long history and culture fight with each other. Things shouldn't be like this.

P5678 said:

I think we can consider close this thread, I have a feeling that it is not going to create any more meaningful discussion as there are too many assumptions. I think China's focus currently is not at border, so they will play low key and won't provide much information except they suffer quite a lot.
Anyway it is sad to see these two countries with such long history and culture fight with each other. Things shouldn't be like this.

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CCP is keeping gains very quiet. A lottery winner won't be announcing his gains all over town either. India is making a fuss because democracy and the other political groups are trying to hold Modi accountable and failing because Modi has mobilised his real weapon, information warfare using his favoured media sources and personalities. Whatever, the mess is only slowing them down. China's silence is translated by bhakts as huge losses. The source for this speculation? Their imaginations and random "anonymous sources" which isn't corroborated by any government including India's own. Even foreign media writing on this quote India's random "anonymous sources" when talking about PLA "losses" and they even make it clear these are only circumstantial at best and entirely potential losses and in no way verified. You'd think Indian soldiers who actually killed PLA will have given their military enough formal evidence and claims to allow the Indian government and military to formally say PLA lost x numbers like countries always do. They have given only their own losses and not said anything official about PLA's. PLA likely suffered lots of injuries and possibly a few deaths from those injuries after the fact.


Why did it have to happen? Well why did India rubbish article 370 and threaten the entire region with instability? Why did India threaten CPEC? Why has India constantly been antagonising China since 2013 while making those unilateral and aggressive posturing? And why build up their military camps right up to where China's claimed borders are? Surely China would respond eventually and now it has. India's response to China's reaction is trade war. Well China says bring it on. India's purchasing of Chinese equipment and goods has not changed significantly at all in the last two months. In fact medical supplies were banned but they've realised trade is a two way street when they can't replace those with Indian alternatives. The only real trade war threat to China here is if India actually creates broad spectrum self-reliance.

@twineedle can u explain in detail those satellite images?

All these random images with random circles and arrows drawn on them doesn't click with me.

localizer said:

@twineedle can u explain in detail those satellite images?

All these random images with random circles and arrows drawn on them doesn't click with me.

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No he can't.
His version of story is typical indian stories.

Story number 1 : China intruded (no idea where), we are victim. Will firmly safeguard(in the mean time reporting to Japan, UK,Germany,US,Russia,Uganda, Kenya............etc etc)

Story number 2 : They got scared & retreated beyond claim line(whose claim line?!!) . Even china is saying we are aggressive. Because of strong leadership, we are ultra power.(Umm, then what the heck you have been discussing in the meetings?!!)
Here is the satellite images (umm, last time indian air crash force showed "irrefutable" proof of downing american F-16 of pakis, what about that? )

It doesn't matter whatever version it is, in his calculation it will always lead to indian win. They went to bomb pakis. So they won militarily. Then "satellite images" showed nothing, pilot got captured. Then they won "diplomatically" "forcing" safe return of pilot.
This continuation of indian win saga has been going on since dinosaur era. They were biggest military power with nukes, internet, jets since ancient time. So their super kings had big kingdoms.
Then they got invaded by literally everyone. Indian didn't want to use their high techs because of humanity. So their "humanity" won.

They always win.

ougoah said:

Mate you are very confused. We're talking about mutual claims not recognised borders. Both sides recognise certain lines where beyond which is certainly India and beyond which is certainly China right? Neither side is disputing this. However both sides dispute Aksai Chin and Ladakh region and India actually is the one with the claim to the entirety of those disputed lands. China's claim for example at Pangong Tso has always been to finger 4 which is midway between finger 1 to finger 8. However India here claims everything from finger 1 to finger 8. Now the buffer is finger 3 to finger 5 with China taking finger 5 to 8. Isn't that China moving up to China's claims (finger 4) and now taking finger 8 to 5 while finger 4's 1km to both sides now serves as a buffer? Perhaps a drawing is necessary to illustrate this point. So yes India has indeed lost its claim to finger 5 - 8. The situation a Galwan Valley and Depsang is similar where China has now taken what India also claimed. The issue is that the claims overlap! And this is the source of confusion.

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Your conclusion on the situation is very much dependent on the meaning of buffer and what actions are agreed within these buffer zones between fingers 3 to 8.

As a preamble the following is my understanding of the situation in Pangong Tso.
1)Finger 2 is the Chinese interpretation of the point of LAC whereas the Indians consider it to be finger 8. The Indian position is based on the furthest point where China has a historical structure.
2)In recent history, finger 4 is the point of demarcation. This is a result of China agreeing to dismantle a permanent structure build between 2014-2015.
3)Consequently India had active control up to finger 4 with patrols ending at finger 8. Conversely, the Chinese would actively patrol up to finger 4 with occasional patrols to finger 2.
4)The most recent clash was at finger 5 and the eye to eye was at finger 2.
5)If the agreement was that India's side of the buffer is fingers 3 to 5 and the Chinese side is from fingers 5 to 8, then both sides have conceded by way of buffer zones.

It seems China is not willing to recognise the ultimate sacrifice made by its soldiers for the country as the government is pressuring the families of soldiers who died in Galwan face off to not conduct burials and in-person funeral ceremonies, according to a US intelligence assessment.

.. The Chinese government has acknowledged the deaths of only a few officers so far. Indian intercepts have revealed that the Chinese side suffered 43 casualties including the dead and seriously injured. "

The Chinese Ministry of Civil Affairs has told families of those who died in the Galwan Valley clash that they must forgo traditional burial ceremonies and cremate the soldiers' remains and that any funeral services should be conducted remotely, not in person, a source familiar with the assessment told U.S. News.

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localizer said:

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I'm sorry but where did the Chinese government ever acknowledge the deaths of a few officers? The claims of this article make it seem like India won the engagement lol. Oh wait, it's from the Times of India ... that explains a lot.

localizer said:

according to a US intelligence assessment.

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Well then i would say there is no need to acknowledge anything.
Last time, after US "intelligence" assessment that kim jong un is dead, he came back to life!!.

Indians and Americans do their 2 minutes of hate every day.