Ladakh Flash Point

ougoah said:

The Mughal empire did NOT have this piece of land in the past and modern India doesn't even have the full stretch (Kashmir, Pakistan) under independent "India". History lessons are sorely in need for Indian leaders here. This land is NOT your's and in fact it has never been at any time during history.

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So before the Mughals, there were periods of competition over Ladakh and Xinjiang between all surrounding power centers. Remember, the Mughals were just the last in a long line of Muslim dynasties that ruled India. Even the Ummayads had a presence here, and there was some contention over Ladakh between 3 different power centers:

"Fisher, Rose & Huttenback, Himalayan Battleground (1963), pp. 12–15: "Ladakh's geographical position leaves no room for doubt that its ancient caravan routes must have often served as a path first for conquest and then for retreat of the opposing armies as they alternated between victory and defeat."

There were periods of competition, but mostly trade/cooperation prevailed. Most of the history of this rocky region is actually peripheral to the general relations between the power centers around that area. This is why historically, this region has been mostly peaceful, because relations between China and the Muslim Dynasties were mostly peaceful, focusing on material and scientific trade. This is why one of the first things that Pakistan did upon independence, was give China back its claimed land in Kashmir. Because there was never any 'crusade' between our two peoples. Our actual nemesis has always been European.

In any case, the point is this: Peace in this region is a function of competition between the power centers around this region. Just because in history this area was mostly peaceful, that doesn't mean peace is the natural state of this region. It was only peaceful because the relations between those power centers were peaceful. Not because the area itself has no value or has been unclaimed. Therefore, whenever competition returns between the centers of power, so will conflict return in this region.

Granted, "India" had nothing to do with this back then. It has no actual "historical claims" because it has no history. But that is besides the point. Competition in this area has returned, because the players around the area are competing again. As for the question of "why" competition returned as soon as "India" came into being, well that is a whole other story. Maybe it's because they were ruled for so long that as soon as they got any power they went aggressive... Or maybe they were just always like this. What we do know, is that the historical records of the dynasties who have ruled them, are not very flattering towards "Indian" tribes in general. Neither the British, nor the Muslim dynasties held most of their local tribes in high regard, especially the Northern ones (the ones who think they are the "Aryans" lolz.)

If India doesn't have a clear claim to Ladakh, neither does China. Historically, Ladakh was ruled as a part of Tibet, which was never ruled as a part of China until the Yuan dynasty(Mongols). Tibet wasn't even a part of china proper until the Qing dynasty. LAdakh was only administered as part of the Mughal empire in exchange for support against Tibet after the King sided with Bhuthan. However the Mughal Empire died out after Aurangzeb, and the subcontinent was mostly ruled by the Marathas, and Ladakh became de facto part otf Tibet again. However, Jammu and kashmir including Ladakh were conquered by the Sikh Empire in the late 18th century. After the Sikhs were defeated by the British, Ladakh and Baltistan became a part of Tibet once again, and by extension a part of the Qing dynasty. That is the only time Eastern Ladakh was a directly ruled by Chin, until ,Jammu and Kashmir was ruled by the Dogra empire , which annexed Ladakh again under Zorawar Singh. The Dogras ruled the entire region, which included Aksai Chin, until 1947.

So obviously, Eastern Ladakh may not have been a part of India proper until recently, but it was only recently administered by China as well. Obviously, the borders of both China and India have been changing pretty frequently during the past 500 years or so.


Anyway, it's funny how India supposedly has no history despite the fact Pakistan was literally created by the British out of thin air in 1947. In fact, many of the greatest Mughal Emperors were born in Modern India, not Modern Pakistan.India at least has clear precedents during ancient times, like the Mauryans and Guptas. Chinese scholars like Faxian had travelled extensively through India at the time and China as a whole had pretty good relations with Indian dynaties(kingdoms for thousands of years after that. Ironically, the only part of the subcontinent that was ruled by foreign powers for 1000 years was modern Pakistan. The amount of non South Asian ancestry many Pakistanis have just shows this(the same applies to nw India to a lesser extent). Only the northern part of India was ruled by the invading empires and that to for under 500 years, the south for the most part had very little foreign influence with the exception of Hyderabad and Mysore. For reference, this is how the Indian subcontinent looked like several decades before the British were involved. The later image shows the expansion of the Sikhs to Jammu and Kashmir Obviously we are getting off topic, but I feel some more historical context is needed since we are now discussing historical claims to ladakh.

ougoah said:

How is that China occupied eastern Ladakh!? That's China proper! These bastards always present themselves as both victor and victim simultaneously.

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It is Raj who is making those claims, no need to take him seriously.

twineedle said:

So obviously, Eastern Ladakh may not have been a part of India proper until recently, but it was only recently administered by China as well. Obviously, the borders of both China and India have been changing pretty frequently during the past 500 years or so.


Anyway, it's funny how India supposedly has no history despite the fact Pakistan was literally created by the British out of thin air in 1947. In fact, many of the greatest Mughal Emperors were born in Modern India, not Modern Pakistan.India at least has clear precedents during ancient times, like the Mauryans and Guptas. Chinese scholars like Faxian had travelled extensively through India at the time and China as a whole had pretty good relations with Indian dynaties(kingdoms for thousands of years after that. Ironically, the only part of the subcontinent that was ruled by foreign powers for 1000 years was modern Pakistan. The amount of non South Asian ancestry many Pakistanis have just shows this(the same applies to nw India to a lesser extent). Only the northern part of India was ruled by the invading empires and that to for under 500 years, the south for the most part had very little foreign influence with the exception of Hyderabad and Mysore. For reference, this is how the Indian subcontinent looked like several decades before the British were involved. The later image shows the expansion of the Sikhs to Jammu and Kashmir Obviously we are getting off topic, but I feel some more historical context is needed since we are now discussing historical claims to ladakh.

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If Pakistan is created out of thin air by Britishers, then India is too?

Chinese borders were formed by Chinese themselves. The same can't be said about India.

Xsizor said:

If Pakistan is created out of thin air by Britishers, then India is too?

Chinese borders were formed by Chinese themselves. The same can't be said about India.

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Obviously, the Republic of India was born in 1947. But that doesn't mean India has no history, does it?
But before 1947, there were multiple empires within the modern borders of the Republic of India that were broadly referred to as India, including by travelers such as Faxian The Republic of India is only the most recent one of those. The modern democratic nation-state, is a very recent in general.
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Xsizor said:

Interesting how you invalidate the words of a Patrol Troop Commander for Phds or think tank shills.

(Galwan)

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You mean like how you discredited the interview of Col. Dinny, a patrol commander on Pangong, back when we were discussing Indian and Chinese patrols there?

twineedle said:

Obviously, the Republic of India was born in 1947. But that doesn't mean India has no history, does it?
But before 1947, there were multiple empires within the modern borders of the Republic of India that were broadly referred to as India, including by travelers such as Faxian The Republic of India is only the most recent one of those. The modern democratic nation-state, is a very recent in general.
'

You mean like how you discredited the interview of Col. Dinny, a patrol commander on Pangong, back when we were discussing Indian and Chinese patrols there?

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Stop beating around the bush, the nation of India is a product of British colonialism. It's borders specifically is drawn up by Colonial masters.

China's isn't.

Col. Dinny? Him being one of those Modi-Party cronies who toes the narrative and directions of the government is irrelevant when we are discussing the true placement of the borders of the past and the changes that has taken place to it over time. To that, the retired border Troop commander's words carry heft.

If the Indian government says that LAC is what that exists post 2020 then Mr Dinny wouldn't technically be wrong.

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Still waiting for those updated map of yohrs showing Patrol points 19 to 21 in Hot Springs

As well as a good rebuke to the assertions of the RJS regarding Galwan

While India still insists it has problems in Patrol point 17A.

Xsizor said:

Stop beating around the bush, the nation of India is a product of British colonialism. It's borders specifically is drawn up by Colonial masters.

China's isn't.

Col. Dinny? Him being one of those Modi-Party cronies who toes the narrative and directions of the government is irrelevant when we are discussing the true placement of the borders of the past and the changes that has taken place to it over time. To that, the retired border Troop commander's words carry heft.

If the Indian government says that LAC is what that exists post 2020 then Mr Dinny wouldn't technically be wrong.

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Still waiting for those updated map of yohrs showing Patrol points 19 to 21 in Hot Springs

As well as a good rebuke to the assertions of the RJS regarding Galwan

While India still insists it has problems in Patrol point 17A.

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Col. Dinny is also a retired patrol troop commander who served on Pangong. In his interview he simply spoke about the extent of his patrols when he served there(the 90s and early 2002s). The LAC in all sectors back then was the same as it is today, as all open sources prove. Are you saying he is lying about where his troops patrolled? Since you do not have any evidence disproving him, you launch strawman attacks at his credibility and obfuscate, when in reality Col. dinny is by no means a Modi supporter. Unlike the likes of shukla, who are openly biased against the current Government, and are contradicted by literally every other available evidence, including historical Indian documents, CIA maps, and current satellite images, as well as the map you yourself posted a page ago using US Office of the Geographer data from decades ago. To use your own words, as a retired patrol troop commander, shouldn't Col. dinny's testimony carry "heft," especially when there is no evidence contradicting him(can't say the same about Shukla).

As for hot Springs, I thought we already discussed it. If you have any additional satellite imagery supporting your claims, please post it.

twineedle said:

Col. Dinny is also a retired patrol troop commander who served on Pangong. In his interview he simply spoke about the extent of his patrols when he served there(the 90s and early 2002s). The LAC in all sectors back then was the same as it is today, as all open sources prove. Are you saying he is lying about where his troops patrolled? Since you do not have any evidence disproving him, you launch strawman attacks at his credibility and obfuscate, when in reality Col. dinny is by no means a Modi supporter.

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Topic : Galwan.

You dragged in Col. Dinny when it was Galwan the point of discussion.
Col. Dinny did not Patrol Galwan. But RJS did. And according to him, LAC at Galwan of present is not what he encountered back twenty years ago.

The one strawmaning here is you. You are using Col. Dinny to cover for RJS when both had patrolled different regions.


Col. Dinny retired just recently.

To use him to cover up for RJS statement ( which you never rebuked then or now) is the true obfuscation. The two retirees are incomparable.




RJS Still remains to be rebuked and corrected.

twineedle said:

it's funny how India supposedly has no history despite the fact Pakistan was literally created by the British out of thin air in 1947. In fact, many of the greatest Mughal Emperors were born in Modern India, not Modern Pakistan.

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Your mental gymnastics are truly sad.... I am actually embarrassed for you right now. According to you, if a conqueror has a son, he becomes the conquered, because the son was born in a conquered land, and that makes him the same as the conquered people... great logic, makes total sense, lolz. Everything you're saying right now reeks of desperation.

twineedle said:

Obviously, the Republic of India was born in 1947. But that doesn't mean India has no history, does it?

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Do you know why you call yourself "Indian"? The word "India" is derived from "Indus," which is a river in modern day Pakistan. The Persians told the Greeks 'we just call that place India' so everyone started calling you that. And you still call yourself "Indian", even though you lost the actual river your name is based on. Even the word "Hindu" isn't your own. "Hindu" is a Persian word that was used by Persians to describe you.... This is your actual history. Deal with it.

twineedle said:

Unlike the likes of shukla, who are openly biased against the current Government, and are contradicted by literally every other available evidence, including historical Indian documents, CIA maps, and current satellite images, as well as the map you yourself posted a page ago using US Office of the Geographer data from decades ago. To use your own words, as a retired patrol troop commander, shouldn't Col. dinny's testimony carry "heft," especially when there is no evidence contradicting him(can't say the same about Shukla).

As for hot Springs, I thought we already discussed it. If you have any additional satellite imagery supporting your claims, please post it.

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Comprehension. Improve upon it.

The retired Troop Commander from 70s to 90s is not equal to a recent retiree. That too when different regions are in question. RJS carry heft when it's the half-century change of LAC at Galwan Valley region the question.


Topic : Gogra (PP17 A)

As for Hot Springs, yes, we did discuss it.
And you failed miserably in trying to prove that your interpretation of the map (of Ajai Shukla with Patrol Points 19 to 20) were right. You crawled back and then targeted Ajai Shukla. Resorting to ad hominems and questions about his loyalty and bias.

You still haven't pointed out where the rest of the patrol points lie. You simply said it lies somewhere there.

Then there is the fact that Indian Government openly accepts that Patrol point 17A is a clash point. By your interpretation of the Gogra region satellite imagery (of March 1, 2021), both Indian and Chinese bases are far away and no visible close proximity confrontation exist - contradicting Indian government claims that PP17 A is a clash point.