JMSDF 16DDH Carrier Takes shape

Jeff Head said:

No doubt she will use her helos for that purpose. She is also a very powerful Command and control centerpiece.

Imagine an extremely powerful SAG/Sea control force with these vessels. Seven vessels consisting of a Hyuga (one of these), a Kongo, an Atago, and two each of Takanami and Murasami DDGs. Add a couple of Osumis and you have a fairly powerful Amphibious assault group too.

IMHO, the JMSDF is really stepping things up in the western Pacific. Soon they would be able to field two of these groups, either way (SAG/Sea Control or Amphibious Assault, and the launch of these new Hyuga carriers is making a large statement to that effect.

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Nice photos Jeff.

Looking at the task forces that you suggest may be built around these ships shows clearly how quickly the JMSDF is regaining Japan's traditional status as a major naval power. As Popeye says it is already second only to the USN in the Pacific.

Tas

Sometimes you wonder what has happened with many non-U.S. navies' so-called "Fleet" or "Light Fleet" carriers (even RN and French) with less-than-true Fleet speeds; it's somewhat ironic then that the Japanese "un-Carrier" has true Fleet speed.

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True enough. Why is this ship so fast??? Simple..In my opinion it is to be able to keep up with the USN CSG. Perhaps operating strickly in an ASW capacity. Load the ship with SH-60's and Merlins and with it's escorts you have a very potent ASW sceeen for a USN CSG. This would free up the USN CSG to concentrate on it's attack mission...

Norfolk said:

Being able to achieve 30-knots, the 16DDH has true Fleet Carrier speed

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In addition to running with all of their modern destroyers (which all run at 30+ knots) including their six AEGIS vessels, it is clear to me that these vessels were also designed to run with the big dogs, the US CSGs.

In a crisis, those extra knots will make a difference.

Tasman said:

Nice photos Jeff.

Looking at the task forces that you suggest may be built around these ships shows clearly how quickly the JMSDF is regaining Japan's traditional status as a major naval power. As Popeye says it is already second only to the USN in the Pacific.

Tas

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Thanks TAS, it is true, and has been for some time IMHO, even without the Hyuga Class and Osumis. Outisde of the five DDH destroyers, they have a fleet of almost fifty modern destroyers and destroyer escorts, from those smaller destroyer escorts, to speacilty ASW destroyers, to capable multi-purpose destroyers, to very powerful and capable 9,000-10,000 AEGIS vessels.

Here's the full list (including the DDH):

DDH
Hyuga - 1
Shirane - 2
Haruna - 2

DDG - Air coverage
Atago -2
Kong - 4
Hatakazi - 2
Tachikazi - 2

DDG - MP and ASW
Takanami - 4
Murasami - 9
Asagiri - 6
Hatsuyuki - 11

DE - ASW and ASuW
Abukuma - 6
Yubari - 2
Ishikani - 1

Now, with the addition fo the fine sea control carriers, they are developing credible power projection capabilities around that force.

bd popeye said:

True enough. Why is this ship so fast??? Simple..In my opinion it is to be able to keep up with the USN CSG. Perhaps operating strickly in an ASW capacity. Load the ship with SH-60's and Merlins and with it's escorts you have a very potent ASW sceeen for a USN CSG. This would free up the USN CSG to concentrate on it's attack mission...

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Imagine if they developed or purchased a ASW variant of the Osprey to compliment their other helos on that vessel. I bet that larger elevator could accomodate an Osprey that was all folded up and squared away for taking below decks. That would also give them long legged ASW capabilities.

A very potent vessel indeed...and that does not even begin to address what migh be should the Japanese acquire the VSTOL JSF. I am watching for that. If there is a deal discussed regarding that, then you know that they had it in mind from the get go...and I could not blame them in the least and, personally, would in fact welcome it.

I wonder if any news of a PLAN carrier group will come out if and when the JSDF puts F-35s on their carrier? It would certainly mitigate the political impact.

Skywatcher said:

I wonder if any news of a PLAN carrier group will come out if and when the JSDF puts F-35s on their carrier? It would certainly mitigate the political impact.

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We have several threads with plenty of information on PLAN Cv development;

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/chinese-navy/

As for the JSF on the 16DDH. We shall have to wait and see. It will be several years in the future...The USN and USMC have no JSF as of yet.

I think people are forgetting that the Japanese also have a trio of flat tops that they have already; the Osumi class LST's:


Specifications
Standard Displacement: 8,900ton
Boundary Dimension:
Length: 178m
Width: 25.8m
Depth: 17.0m
Draft: 6.0m
Main Engine: Mitsui 16V42M-A Diesel x2; 2 shafts propulsion
Horsepower: 26,000bhp; 26,400bhp (LST4002)
Maximum Speed: 22kt
Crew: 135 (138 for LST4002-4003)
Armament: 20mm Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) x1
Special Equipment: Landing Craft Air Cushion x2 on board

Pointblank said:

I think people are forgetting that the Japanese also have a trio of flat tops that they have already; the Osumi class LST's

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What exactly is your point? How is having a flat-top LST somehow significant and relevant to this discussion?

Pointblank said:

I think people are forgetting that the Japanese also have a trio of flat tops that they have already; the Osumi class LST's:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a5/Lst4002_jmsdf-01-s.jpg[/qimg]
Specifications
Standard Displacement: 8,900ton
Boundary Dimension:
Length: 178m
Width: 25.8m
Depth: 17.0m
Draft: 6.0m
Main Engine: Mitsui 16V42M-A Diesel x2; 2 shafts propulsion
Horsepower: 26,000bhp; 26,400bhp (LST4002)
Maximum Speed: 22kt
Crew: 135 (138 for LST4002-4003)
Armament: 20mm Close-In Weapons System (CIWS) x1
Special Equipment: Landing Craft Air Cushion x2 on board

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Actually, not forgotten at all, as i mention in this post on this thread and picture as well.

While the flat areas on the Osumis would and could accomodate helos and potentially VTOL aircraft, the hanger spaces on these vessels is very small.

They have a well deck (which my picture above show quite clearly) and storage below decks for their infantry contingent and their supplies and vehicles, but very, very litttle room for servicing an air wing. The vessels can maybe accomodate no more than 3-4 helos, and all but onbe of those, I believe, has to be on deck. I do not think the elevator will accomodate a VTOL aircraft.

Their relation to the Hyuga class would be to serve with them as a part of a credible Amphibious assault task force, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

No hangar on the Osumi class LST...They must have some sort of storage. Look at this picture...The helo has the rotors removed for storage. It's no easy job installing rotors blades. It can be very time consuming...

Anybody know the size including height of the storage aera on this "LST"?

Complain to Jeff about the fuzzy picture

The Osumi class does have a storage deck in forward section, which the Japanese claim is for vehicles. But I guess "vehicle" could also include helicopters, if you can somehow squeeze them inside.

With major interior/structural rework, you could install a larger elevator and convert LCAC storage space for hanger space. But that would defeat the purpose of building a LST in the first place. The ship was built to function as an LST, and will be used as such until retirement.

The same goes for the 16DDH. It's built as replacement for earlier ASW DDH and will give the Japanese navy big boost in its capabilities. However the ship was never intended for use as fixed-wing carrier, and will most likely never be refit or rebuilt into a carrier, regardless of whatever speculation people have based on its appearance or name (Hyuga).

The Japanese are doing an incrementalistic approach toward a carrier. If they suddenly unleashed several fixed wing carriers on the scene, it'd provoke hostile response from East Asian neighbors. So they built smaller ones that kidna look like carriers, then bigger ones, and then bigger ones until they build a real carrier with ski jump. Diplomatically speaking it's like dropping several small bombs over time, versus dropping a big one.

In some ways the Japanese are doing a "go slow" approach no different than the Chinese. Slowly build up tonnage and capability, import foreign tech, use joint ventures to obtain technology and improve domestic defense R&D to support your new hardware, and so on. It's a prudent, careful approach, where you have plenty of time to work out bugs and figure out what works and what doesn't.

</rant>

What we see on some forums, is people who get starry-eyed or feel all mushy inside whenever they see a carrier, or anything that could potentially be a carrier (it's a military forum, what did you expect). They wish REALLY hard that a ship would somehow "grow" into a carrier, or country XYZ's navy finally put a carrier to sea by 200X. Then if it doesn't happen, they feel all disappointed and complain about the slow-crawl progress.

In some ways it's like people who buy stocks, then saw the stock go down and they WISH and PRAY really hard that it'd come back up. Sorry, it's not a carrier, will most likely never be a carrier, and that stock ain't rebounding.

</rant off>