Jian vs. Jian

crobato

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
The J7 is better interceptor than J6, it is better in transonic and supersonic speed. And that is very important for attacking high speed and high flying targets.
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The problem of the original MiG-21F design which the first J-7s were based from, is that the fuel is too limited for the plane to use its speed. Speed up and the fuel goes bingo.

Later generations of MiG-21s added more fuel to the airframe, but at the cost of adding weight to the airframe.

CAC created an ingenious solution to the problem. When it designed the new wing for the J-7E, they added provisions to store more fuel into the wings while retaining the original lighter airframe of the first generation Fishbed.
 
crobato

crobato

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Here is one issue that is of interest to me. If a regiment is picked to be converted to J-11 or J-10, which type of regiment is better, one that uses J-8IIs or one that uses J-7s?

I don't know if this story is true or not, but it seems to me that it is. The first pilots picked to fly the first Su-27s for the PLAAF were taken from J-8II ranks. It was assumed that the J-8II was the most advanced type available for the PLAAF, and the pilots should have a better understanding how to use radar or fly a larger, heavier plane. Though the Russians commented also that the pilots also have a hard time trusting their radars, and had to be weaned off from that habit.

In a way, I suppose that may stunt how the pilots may fly the Su-27 by habit. A J-8II pilot probably won't push or use intense aerobatics on the Su-27 as much as a J-6 or J-7 pilot can. Instead he may revert to the strike and dash tarctics he is accustomed on the J-8II. This is not to say, this is not a smart or valid tactic. A J-8II pilot could probably use the better situational awareness he gets from his larger radar compared to the J-7 and take a more calculated attack on his target. The J-7 pilot on the other hand, might be accustomed to dogfighting and pushing his aircraft right to the handling envelope. It is kind of hard to say from which aircraft one will produce a better pilot.
 
K

KYli

Brigadier
Swimm
I will be careful next time, and I got little lazy. :D :eek:

Hi Crabato

I agreed with what you said, but I think you might give too much credit to J6. J6 might be good dogfight fighter, but it has very limited capability.:) J7 might not live up to expectation in early version, but you have to remember all the USSR and her allied had replaced their J6 for J7 as soon as J7 come along.
 
A

adeptitus

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tphuang said:
J-8 in my mind is just a disgraceful program. As you said, it didn't really prove its worth until in the recent years with the induction of slotted array radar and medium ranged AAM. Of course, it would now be a little unfair to match up a J-8F equipped with 2 PL-12s and 2 PL-8s against a J-7 with a few PL-8/PL-5s. J-8 has seemed to finally achieved the Mig-31 role in plaaf (although not as fast, but more manuverable).
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Whoa, that's pretty harsh.

The J-8's long and troubled development was certaintely not ideal, but it sure gave the ROCAF cold sweats in 1980. At the time the ROCAF only had F-5E's and couldnt' purchase F-16's and F-20's. So they had to spend a billion dollars on the IDF.

IMO the J-8-II is lacking even when comparred to the original MiG-31 from 1970's. At the time the MiG-31 was equipped with Zaslon S-800 radar (max detection rage 200km) and Vympel R-33 missiles (160km range). The radar suite is cited to be able to track 10 targets and attack 4, and up to 4 MiG-31's could coordinate via datalink to cover a wide area. By the 1990's the MiG-31 had received Zaslon-M radar upgrade (400km range) and R-37 missile (280km range) to hit AWACS. The J-8-II can't match that.
 
tphuang

tphuang

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adeptitus said:
Whoa, that's pretty harsh.

The J-8's long and troubled development was certaintely not ideal, but it sure gave the ROCAF cold sweats in 1980. At the time the ROCAF only had F-5E's and couldnt' purchase F-16's and F-20's. So they had to spend a billion dollars on the IDF.

IMO the J-8-II is lacking even when comparred to the original MiG-31 from 1970's. At the time the MiG-31 was equipped with Zaslon S-800 radar (max detection rage 200km) and Vympel R-33 missiles (160km range). The radar suite is cited to be able to track 10 targets and attack 4, and up to 4 MiG-31's could coordinate via datalink to cover a wide area. By the 1990's the MiG-31 had received Zaslon-M radar upgrade (400km range) and R-37 missile (280km range) to hit AWACS. The J-8-II can't match that.
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I won't say J-8F is as good as Mig-31 now or even earlier versions. I just said that it plays a similar role in plaaf's scheme of things. Also, the stuff about Mig-31's radar and missiles aren't that impressive. R-33 and R-37 are generally not going to destroy their enemy aircraft from that far out unless the enemy is a transport or AWACS. I believe AIM-54 only had a chance of bringing down Mig-31s and AWACS. Same with other long range AAMs like AA-9 and KS-172. Plus, it's RCS is absolutely humongous.
 
Wingman

Wingman

Junior Member
IMO J-8 is a reasonable, although not particularly large, step up from J-7 and J-6, mainly because of better BVR, and of course the energy performance (which is also important for BVR)

Having better BVR is a huge advantage over non-BVR fighters. The only way a J-7 can get within range of a BVR equipped J-8** for a dogfight is if it dodges the J-8's missiles while flying towards the J-8. That's doable but it takes guts, you have to spot the missile and barrel roll around its axis of approach.

**Ahem, or if the J-7 approaches from the side without being detected. But hopefully the new AWACS the PLAAF got will try its best to make sure that that doesn't happen
 
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crobato

crobato

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I would regard a J-8F with PL-12 missiles to be a more serious threat than a "classic" Su-27SK with R-27s. A superior airframe cannot guarantee superiority against something that may have better missiles and possibly better radar and electronics. Cannot underline or emphasize enough the need for the PLAAF to upgrade its AAM inventory and the aircraft that carry them. Just as important to get every Su-27 or J-11 out there and make them R-77 or PL-12 capable.

To build J-8Fs is not enough. The entire inventory of low flight hour J-8s, from the J-8II to the J-8D should be electronically upgraded. I don't know how much it would cost, but I bet its would be dimes and pennies compared to a brand new J-8F, J-10 or J-11. They can work downward to the -B airframes with the most life. Should not bother with airframes that are worned out.

J-8s should also get some datalink that not only lets them get informatoni from GCI or AWACS but from Su-27s, JH-7s and Su-30MKKs. They themselves should be able to share that information with J-7s.

A J-7 of any late version (E, G, H) will find its best upgrade with a datalink. This upgrade is surely tidely pennies compared to all the other upgrades and new planes we have been talking about. There is so many J-7s out there that you cannot replace them overnight. You cannot get around the small nose of the plane to put in a decently sized radar. But to give the J-7 pilot a decent situational awareness, it should be able to obtain situational information from AWACS and other fighters, Su-27, J-8II, JH-7A, Su-30MKK, Y-8s all included. It's best chance in any aircombat given its lack of BVR is to be able to silently approach its target without using its radar at all, get a heat lock and shoot its PL-8 heaters. Upgrading J-7E to the -G standard with new avionics, radar and windshield, might be able to improve its close range capabilities.
 
Wingman

Wingman

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Speaking of J-8s, what's with the J-8IVs flying with the 9th Naval Aviation Division, according to
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???

When did the IV variant come out? I can barely find any info on it, and it's not on Sinodefence. Is it supposed to be a further upgrade from the cancelled III variant?
 
tphuang

tphuang

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crobato said:
I would regard a J-8F with PL-12 missiles to be a more serious threat than a "classic" Su-27SK with R-27s. A superior airframe cannot guarantee superiority against something that may have better missiles and possibly better radar and electronics. Cannot underline or emphasize enough the need for the PLAAF to upgrade its AAM inventory and the aircraft that carry them. Just as important to get every Su-27 or J-11 out there and make them R-77 or PL-12 capable.

To build J-8Fs is not enough. The entire inventory of low flight hour J-8s, from the J-8II to the J-8D should be electronically upgraded. I don't know how much it would cost, but I bet its would be dimes and pennies compared to a brand new J-8F, J-10 or J-11. They can work downward to the -B airframes with the most life. Should not bother with airframes that are worned out.

J-8s should also get some datalink that not only lets them get informatoni from GCI or AWACS but from Su-27s, JH-7s and Su-30MKKs. They themselves should be able to share that information with J-7s.

A J-7 of any late version (E, G, H) will find its best upgrade with a datalink. This upgrade is surely tidely pennies compared to all the other upgrades and new planes we have been talking about. There is so many J-7s out there that you cannot replace them overnight. You cannot get around the small nose of the plane to put in a decently sized radar. But to give the J-7 pilot a decent situational awareness, it should be able to obtain situational information from AWACS and other fighters, Su-27, J-8II, JH-7A, Su-30MKK, Y-8s all included. It's best chance in any aircombat given its lack of BVR is to be able to silently approach its target without using its radar at all, get a heat lock and shoot its PL-8 heaters. Upgrading J-7E to the -G standard with new avionics, radar and windshield, might be able to improve its close range capabilities.
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I'm pretty sure they are doing a lot of J-7 and J-8 upgrades. All the J-8 that can be upgraded will be upgraded to H standard, maybe even to F (yeah, it's confusing that F is better than H)

I've always wondered about China's datalinking capability. Just like everything else in plaaf, the information on it is so scarce.
 
crobato

crobato

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Wingman said:
Speaking of J-8s, what's with the J-8IVs flying with the 9th Naval Aviation Division, according to
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
???

When did the IV variant come out? I can barely find any info on it, and it's not on Sinodefence. Is it supposed to be a further upgrade from the cancelled III variant?
Click to expand...

There is no IV variant. Currently that division is now using JH-7As in one regiment.
 
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