JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Mohsin77]

Can we please stop with the China is nothing without Pakistan BS. So tired of this crap and some Pakistanis who have convinced themselves they are insiders when it comes to military stuff. PDF is the same. I've been reading the blk 3 thread there and my goodness the stupidity and arrogance often exceed the worst Bhakt chauvinism. The way some Pakistani members put down others will make the worst India chauvinists blush with humility.

Most posters are not insiders working on project xyz. Most do not know the reactions of Americans in Jacobabad and Chinese reactions in CATIC. Stop pretending you do. Most posters like that Denel clown over at PDF do not have access to top of the line Chinese EW or probably any serious Chinese avionics and EW systems. From the crap he posts, he probably isn't a real engineer at Denel, just some Islamist with a chip on his shoulder against Indians and Chinese (recently because of the Uighur thing). We must contain PDF stupidity to that forum and the mods here should not allow these sorts of posts to become acceptable in a relatively rational forum.

If anyone wants to make claims about Chinese EW being a decade behind when they worked on them (LOL!) in South Africa, they should back that shit up, at least with model types. If you have access to American and Chinese bases and engineering information, back that shit up. Too much of this I'm an insider wink wink trust me BS lurking around.

Um, I have no idea what kind of nonsense you have been reading, but this is absolutely not ok. Pakistan does not get a say on what China spend its money on.

If you are referring to Soft loans, that’s still now correct as those are not handouts, and would have been granted with very specific goals, conditions and stipulations on when and where that money could be spent, as is standard practice with such loans.

Just as it would be ludicrous for anyone to suggest Pakistan can spend American military aid money to purchase Chinese military equipment, it is equally ridiculous to suggest Pakistan can spend Chinese money on Turkish weapons. If Pakistan wants to borrow money from China to buy Turkish weapons, that’s fine, but expect to pay normal commercial interests rates on those loans.



And now you are touching upon the real meat of the special relationship, whereby both sides share their knowledge and experience for mutual benefit.

Pakistan and China have a very special relationship, but that is based on mutual respect above all else. Thankfully both the Chinese and Pakistani governments are mature and sensible enough to not make silly demands of each other and take this special relationship for granted.

China shows Pakistan respect by not explicitly excluding any items from export as others does, but Pakistan also does China the courtesy of not taking that for granted by asking for things it knows full well China cannot possible release for any number of reasons.

It’s the same principle as telling a guest to ‘help yourself’ or to ‘make yourself at home’ and not expecting them to be packing your your brand new flat screen TV to take home with them.

Guys, you're spending way too many words giving rational arguments to a person who doesn't care much for rationality. He functions on pure emotion. You can laugh at him or ignore him, but arguing with him is ill-advised.

The most important thing though, is this recommendation which I believe should definitely be implemented: "We must contain PDF stupidity to that forum and the mods here should not allow these sorts of posts to become acceptable in a relatively rational forum."

What needs to happen is that the more mature PDF posters on this forum need to take back lessons learnt here and improve PDF, rather than spreading PDF antics to other forums all over the internet. So a strict no-nonsense policy should be implemented here, which will actually help PDF in the long run.

 

[Deino]

Egyptian Air Force Shows Interest in Large Purchase of AESA Equipped JF-17 Fighters ....

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Oh come on .... NOT again that BS from Militarywatchmagazine! This is BS ... pure BS.

 

[Mohsin77]

Oh come on .... NOT again that BS from Militarywatchmagazine! This si BS ... pure BS.

Please just ban this source. You're a mod, just delete posts citing this BS blog.

 

[Brumby]

Most posters like that Denel clown over at PDF do not have access to top of the line Chinese EW or probably any serious Chinese avionics and EW systems. From the crap he posts, he probably isn't a real engineer at Denel, just some Islamist with a chip on his shoulder against Indians and Chinese (recently because of the Uighur thing). We must contain PDF stupidity to that forum and the mods here should not allow these sorts of posts to become acceptable in a relatively rational forum.

I very seldom visit the PDF site but based on your comments about Denel I did to understand what issues you had about his/her posts. Firstly I am not sure why you are importing what you consider as issues into SDF. There are rules in SDF and any post not conforming to the rules here will be moderated.

The Denel character commented that Chinese EW is behind based on his/her direct experience working on them. If you are not satisfied with the comments then call out on it in PDF according to your dis-satisfaction.

If anyone wants to make claims about Chinese EW being a decade behind when they worked on them (LOL!) in South Africa, they should back that shit up, at least with model types. If you have access to American and Chinese bases and engineering information, back that shit up. Too much of this I'm an insider wink wink trust me BS lurking around.

This leads me to why I am even bothering commenting on it. Firstly the Chinese EW is so opaque, I have not seen any description on where they are. The fact that Denel says they are 10 years behind says a lot (even if you think it is BS). Why is this important in the overall conversation and especially on a JF-17 thread? AESA seems to many as a magical solution and there is much expectation of it that comes with Block 3. The problem is there is another side to the coin. AESA proliferation brings very challenging times for EW capabilities with its more complex waveforms and LPI emission If the EW suite is not upgraded to deal with AESA radars then any airforce will be operating with severe deficiency even if you have AESA radars.

Does anybody know what EW capabilities is part of Block 2? Without a baseline, there is no reference point on how significant is the gap. Block 3 capabilities are all under the skin.

 

[kyuryu]

Please just ban this source. You're a mod, just delete posts citing this BS blog.

Noting that there are a number of quite obvious factual errors in the a article (eg. Block III conformal fuel tanks, confusing the CMK-400 with the YJ-12 etc), the underlying rationale of Egypt’s purchase Block III JF-17 actually makes sense. Egypt is moving away from its once very close reliance on US equipment, as the article states the delinking of restrictions on arms sales and in particular longer range air to air missiles like the PL-12E and PL-15E plus high availability rates and low cost per flight hour, plus AESA do make sense for Egypt to consider. The engines share a high degree of compatibility with the Mig29/35 streamlining supply chain management and sustainment. China also can provide the full range of high end air to ground precision guided weapons... it the underlying proposition outlined in the article is not completely flawed or unreasonable

 

[Mohsin77]

Noting that there are a number of quite obvious factual errors in the a article (eg. Block III conformal fuel tanks, confusing the CMK-400 with the YJ-12 etc), the underlying rationale of Egypt’s purchase Block III JF-17 actually makes sense. Egypt is moving away from its once very close reliance on US equipment, as the article states the delinking of restrictions on arms sales and in particular longer range air to air missiles like the PL-12E and PL-15E plus high availability rates and low cost per flight hour, plus AESA do make sense for Egypt to consider. The engines share a high degree of compatibility with the Mig29/35 streamlining supply chain management and sustainment. China also can provide the full range of high end air to ground precision guided weapons... it the underlying proposition outlined in the article is not completely flawed or unreasonable

Egypt may very well be interested in the Block III, but I am 99.9% sure that this "militarywatchmagazine" has no idea about any of it. Saying "reportedly" without providing a source to back up the claim means nothing.

Case in point:

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Below is the fan made artwork this 'magazine' was presenting as "Block 3 Concept Design" lolz

 

[ougoah]

I very seldom visit the PDF site but based on your comments about Denel I did to understand what issues you had about his/her posts. Firstly I am not sure why you are importing what you consider as issues into SDF. There are rules in SDF and any post not conforming to the rules here will be moderated.

The Denel character commented that Chinese EW is behind based on his/her direct experience working on them. If you are not satisfied with the comments then call out on it in PDF according to your dis-satisfaction.



This leads me to why I am even bothering commenting on it. Firstly the Chinese EW is so opaque, I have not seen any description on where they are. The fact that Denel says they are 10 years behind says a lot (even if you think it is BS). Why is this important in the overall conversation and especially on a JF-17 thread? AESA seems to many as a magical solution and there is much expectation of it that comes with Block 3. The problem is there is another side to the coin. AESA proliferation brings very challenging times for EW capabilities with its more complex waveforms and LPI emission If the EW suite is not upgraded to deal with AESA radars then any airforce will be operating with severe deficiency even if you have AESA radars.

Does anybody know what EW capabilities is part of Block 2? Without a baseline, there is no reference point on how significant is the gap. Block 3 capabilities are all under the skin.

I should indeed avoid bringing those discussion points over. I was trying to make the point about the proliferation of posers at PDF who claim to know things. Denel is one of them on the JF-17 thread (thought it would be relevant lol). Pointed out the EW post because Denel does not have access to any Chinese EW. This is assuming the poster is an engineer at Denel to begin with! While it is possibly true, the fact that he/she has access to and has comprehensively tested Chinese EW is laughable. If they do have access, it would likely be some obscure export model (possibly years old) for platforms outside of PLAAF fighters. Therefore definitely not an accurate reflection on Chinese EW. Making a sweeping judgement based on this is very unlike the behaviour of a real engineer... this is assuming any of the claims are actually true. That example basically sums up the issues with PDF. Too many posers and too many willing to believe the posers.

Other examples of this are rife. Insiders winking and nudging at hints about this and that coming in for the JF-17 and leading others to believe in all sorts of fantasies that never eventuated. Too many examples to isolate but can be summed up as "trust me... I know what I'm talking about. You will be amazed when you finally see blk 3... it will surprise many "

 

[Brumby]

I should indeed avoid bringing those discussion points over. I was trying to make the point about the proliferation of posers at PDF who claim to know things. Denel is one of them on the JF-17 thread (thought it would be relevant lol). Pointed out the EW post because Denel does not have access to any Chinese EW. This is assuming the poster is an engineer at Denel to begin with! While it is possibly true, the fact that he/she has access to and has comprehensively tested Chinese EW is laughable. If they do have access, it would likely be some obscure export model (possibly years old) for platforms outside of PLAAF fighters. Therefore definitely not an accurate reflection on Chinese EW. Making a sweeping judgement based on this is very unlike the behaviour of a real engineer... this is assuming any of the claims are actually true. That example basically sums up the issues with PDF. Too many posers and too many willing to believe the posers.

Other examples of this are rife. Insiders winking and nudging at hints about this and that coming in for the JF-17 and leading others to believe in all sorts of fantasies that never eventuated. Too many examples to isolate but can be summed up as "trust me... I know what I'm talking about. You will be amazed when you finally see blk 3... it will surprise many "

It would be a waste if time speculating whether Denel had actually worked on Chinese EW systems. However if Denel did then there are some insights that can be provided within the boundaries of non disclosure limitations. I would ask a very simple question, "has the Chinese adopted wideband digital channelised receivers?' There are only three possible answers - yes, no, can't comment.

Why is this question relevant? As an example, ALQ-211 which is widely adopted by many F-16 export customers is a wideband channelised digital receiver with built in DRFM features.



In contrast, the Aselsan EW suite built by Turkey for its F-16 is Superhet wideband digital receiver with no DRFM features (per brochure). This IMO puts it one generation behind in tech adoption.




If memory serves me correctly, the F-16s that were sold to the PAF had the DRFM feature removed by the US.

 

[Tam]

If it uses a threat library, it would have to use DRFM. All signals are captured and stored in the DRFM, which is then compared to the threat library for identification. In addition to that, if it has a record mode for data collection for post flight analysis, then it absolutely would require DRFM to do that. Sometimes you don't have to announce that it has this and that, when something is already so ubiquitously obvious that its no longer worth mentioning.

 

[ougoah]

Can anyone tell me if blk 3's EW suite is Turkish? I've read this on PDF but previously thought Turkish contribution to JF-17 was limited to pods rather than built in EW suites (if such thing even exists for JF-17). Seems like the Aselsan pod isn't as capable as the PDF Turkish members make them out to be.