JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Many modern fighters have internal jammers, but few, if any, of those have the range and effectiveness of dedicated jamming pods.

Internal jammers are at best capable of jamming the seekers of ARHAAMs, but even fighter based AESA or earlier radars would have a good chance to ‘burn through’ that jamming, to say nothing of ground based SAM or warship radars. That’s why wild weasel aircraft always carry podded jammers; and air superiority fighters also frequently does so when facing opposition with good fighter and/or AWACS radars.
Agreed, but there's talk that in PLAAF competition J-11B's internal jammers are able to hold their own when fighting with J-10B with ECM pods, and combine that with quotes that J-11B (while shaving a few hundred KGs from the su27sk airframe and using a lighter radar) is actually about the same in weight as a su27sk because many new electronics are mounted internally, made me wonder just how powerful Chinese flanker variants are in terms of ECM (BTW I believe there are not a lot of pictures of J-11B, J-15 or J16 with ECM pods mounted (the one posted above is a excellent counterexample lol) as opposed to PLAAF's su27sk, J11A and su30mkk almost always appearing with wingtip ECM pods)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Jamming is a horrible word to describe electric warfare. Those external EW pods and dedicated aircraft all do things that are far more than jam.

First is the geolocation of the threat signal. You can call it passive radar or ESM. In short, they are meant to find where the threat signal is.

Second is signal analysis. The signal is compared to known databases of other signals. So you will know if you have been detected by long range search radar or being locked on by a fire control radar.

Third is spoofing. That comes after second. You take the threat signal, make a copy of it, alter and distort it, then send it back to the originator. The distorted signal will give false values on the range and velocity of the target.

Jamming is also more complicated than just interfering. Modern monopulse radars are quite jamming and interference resistant, and combine that with phase coherent techniques, which can counter spoofing. Frequency agile radars and datalinks will jump to another frequency quickly if the one they are using gets jammed.

A good example of one type of spoofing mislabled as jamming is called Cross Eye Jamming. This requires two pods as far as away as possible, such as set on the wing tips. A common example of cross eye jamming which you often see in the forum are the jamming pods set on the wingtips of Flankers. The result of cross eye jamming is the monopulse tracking radar will get a false track of the target.

Here is an example of a paper written on this subject. There were written by Chinese researchers.

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You can't use internal jammers on this, or a single ECM pod. You would need at least two on the wings or wing tips.
 

Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Jamming is a horrible word to describe electric warfare. Those external EW pods and dedicated aircraft all do things that are far more than jam.

First is the geolocation of the threat signal. You can call it passive radar or ESM. In short, they are meant to find where the threat signal is.

Second is signal analysis. The signal is compared to known databases of other signals. So you will know if you have been detected by long range search radar or being locked on by a fire control radar.

Third is spoofing. That comes after second. You take the threat signal, make a copy of it, alter and distort it, then send it back to the originator. The distorted signal will give false values on the range and velocity of the target.

Jamming is also more complicated than just interfering. Modern monopulse radars are quite jamming and interference resistant, and combine that with phase coherent techniques, which can counter spoofing. Frequency agile radars and datalinks will jump to another frequency quickly if the one they are using gets jammed.

A good example of one type of spoofing mislabled as jamming is called Cross Eye Jamming. This requires two pods as far as away as possible, such as set on the wing tips. A common example of cross eye jamming which you often see in the forum are the jamming pods set on the wingtips of Flankers. The result of cross eye jamming is the monopulse tracking radar will get a false track of the target.

Here is an example of a paper written on this subject. There were written by Chinese researchers.

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You can't use internal jammers on this, or a single ECM pod. You would need at least two on the wings or wing tips.
am I right in assuming that the wingtip pods on the EA-18G and the J-15D serve the purpose of performing Cross Eye Jamming?
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Agreed, but there's talk that in PLAAF competition J-11B's internal jammers are able to hold their own when fighting with J-10B with ECM pods, and combine that with quotes that J-11B (while shaving a few hundred KGs from the su27sk airframe and using a lighter radar) is actually about the same in weight as a su27sk because many new electronics are mounted internally, made me wonder just how powerful Chinese flanker variants are in terms of ECM (BTW I believe there are not a lot of pictures of J-11B, J-15 or J16 with ECM pods mounted (the one posted above is a excellent counterexample lol) as opposed to PLAAF's su27sk, J11A and su30mkk almost always appearing with wingtip ECM pods)

Do you have a source? Not that I don’t trust you, it’s just I always like to review primary sources whenever possible.

As for the claim, well it is certain possible if the J11B had both the internal volume and weight allowances to spare to internalise a jamming pod, it should be able to perform on par with an externally carried dedicated pod of similar specs.

If anything, the J11B internal jammers may actually be superior to the J10B’s external pod, since the J10B has a a more modern PESA radar (which should offset against the bigger size radar on the J11B) and a much smaller RCS than the J11B.

Maybe I am miss-remembering, but I am sure I also saw pictures of a Chinese missile pylon with integrated jamming pod.

So J11B onwards aircraft with already a good sized internal jammer could potentially get away with using those to get the same benefit as other aircraft carrying a full suite of dedicated external jamming pods.
 

[email protected]

Junior Member
Registered Member
Just for sake of record
List doesn't stop here in laser guided Thunder is equipped with LT-2 laser guided bombs . LS-3 and LS-6 GPS aided bombs which are based on Mk-82 , 250Kg and MK-83, 500 KG respectively.
JF-17 is configured with Chinese laser guided weapon but PAF use indigenous(as per some reverse engineered) Al-Battar series which is in PAF use from more than a decade
latest pic from PAF Firepower Demonstration-2019 few days back
Albattar.JPG

Following is an years old pic of the same system
Albattar4749.JPG

H-2 and H-4 SOW stand off weapons which are based on Daniel Dynamics Raptor I and Raptor II with range of 60KM and 120KM .
There is no official confirmation for the integration of H-2 and H-4 series with JF-17 and as of now only confirmed Jet operational with H-2/4 series in PAF inventory is Mirage-III/IV ROSE upgrade jets
cruise missiles which was tested on Mirages having range of 350KM is also equipped on Thunder . Interestingly Raad cruise missile is stealthy as well a with low terrain hugging capability.
- RA'ÁD have 550KM range Pakistan has stop producing 350 KM version of RA'AD some time ago

- No official confirmation or even unofficial rumour about the integration of RA'AD with JF-17

- As of now Officially only Mirage-III/IV ROSE are capable to carry nuclear capable RA'AD cruise missile ....
 

Schwerter_

Junior Member
Registered Member
Do you have a source? Not that I don’t trust you, it’s just I always like to review primary sources whenever possible.

As for the claim, well it is certain possible if the J11B had both the internal volume and weight allowances to spare to internalise a jamming pod, it should be able to perform on par with an externally carried dedicated pod of similar specs.

If anything, the J11B internal jammers may actually be superior to the J10B’s external pod, since the J10B has a a more modern PESA radar (which should offset against the bigger size radar on the J11B) and a much smaller RCS than the J11B.

Maybe I am miss-remembering, but I am sure I also saw pictures of a Chinese missile pylon with integrated jamming pod.

So J11B onwards aircraft with already a good sized internal jammer could potentially get away with using those to get the same benefit as other aircraft carrying a full suite of dedicated external jamming pods.
As said these are only talks (mainly read about them on Chinese forums during the aftermath of the golden helmet games 2018) and I really cant say how credible they are, so maybe treat them as somewhat popular rumors before I can locate concrete sources will be best.

As for the missile pylon with integrated jamming pod, I haven't seen it but it sounds like a great idea, do u have a pic or other sort of info on the pylon so that I can dig into it? (hope more of these can be used by PLAAF and PAF, especially on fighters that doesn't have many spare hardpoints for regular pods like J-10)
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
If i recall correctly, those pods on growler are receivers for electronic signals.

ALQ-218 is integrated receiver and jammer. Receiving and jamming/spoofing has to work very closely.

For EW, you need to receive the enemy signal first, save it to memory, determine its frequency, modulation, waveform and make a copy of it, but distort the copy. Then you send it back to the enemy radar, then pray the enemy radar accepts it as its own echo. If it does, the distorted signal has false range or velocity information.

Expect ECM pods to be integrated receiver and jammers.
 
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