JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Acerpacer]

Hi Deino what is the reason for black patch after the radar dome usually in paf we can see the same colour scheme behind the radar dome any change in radar capabilities or some other reason
Thank you

Just glare protection, nothing super secret

 

[Stratton]

A colleague suggests another theory for why the Pakistanis aren't trumpeting the first foreign JF-17 customer: Myanmar's prosecution of their Muslim minority Rohingya. A weapon sale to a regime that's leading a genocide isn't exactly the best way to please your public.

Anyway, I read that Myanmar has six on order, which includes the four that appear to have been delivered. A fleet of six strikes me as quite small. Anybody else have a sense of the potential size of Myanmar's JF-17 fleet? Also, since both the JF-17 and MiG-29 have the RD-33 powerplant, I would expect this would ease logistics somewhat, though I would imagine you can't swap the engine between the two types.

On the wish list for Zhuhai 2020: flying display by MAF JF-17.

 

[DGBJCLAU]

A colleague suggests another theory for why the Pakistanis aren't trumpeting the first foreign JF-17 customer: Myanmar's prosecution of their Muslim minority Rohingya. A weapon sale to a regime that's leading a genocide isn't exactly the best way to please your public.

Anyway, I read that Myanmar has six on order, which includes the four that appear to have been delivered. A fleet of six strikes me as quite small. Anybody else have a sense of the potential size of Myanmar's JF-17 fleet? Also, since both the JF-17 and MiG-29 have the RD-33 powerplant, I would expect this would ease logistics somewhat, though I would imagine you can't swap the engine between the two types.

On the wish list for Zhuhai 2020: flying display by MAF JF-17.

I'm under the impression that most SE Asian countries tend to order pretty small numbers of modern fighter jets: Indonesia, Malaysia, Vietnam... except Singapore who are super rich so...

Mostly budget constraints as it seems to me. But reports I've read claim Myanmar has 16 in their order.

 

[gelgoog]

A colleague suggests another theory for why the Pakistanis aren't trumpeting the first foreign JF-17 customer: Myanmar's prosecution of their Muslim minority Rohingya. A weapon sale to a regime that's leading a genocide isn't exactly the best way to please your public.

Anyway, I read that Myanmar has six on order, which includes the four that appear to have been delivered. A fleet of six strikes me as quite small. Anybody else have a sense of the potential size of Myanmar's JF-17 fleet? Also, since both the JF-17 and MiG-29 have the RD-33 powerplant, I would expect this would ease logistics somewhat, though I would imagine you can't swap the engine between the two types.

On the wish list for Zhuhai 2020: flying display by MAF JF-17.

You can't swap the engine with a MiG-29 because the Chinese like to put the engine gearbox on the opposite side of the engine, similar to USA engines, to simplify maintenance on a local depot. Also I kind of doubt Myanmar has the facilities to do major engine repair work.

 

[Deino]

...Also, since both the JF-17 and MiG-29 have the RD-33 powerplant, I would expect this would ease logistics somewhat, though I would imagine you can't swap the engine between the two types.
....

No, they are not.
Exactly as @gelgoog explained; the RD-93 is the equivalent of the RD-33 like the AL-31FN is to the AL-31F, both the AL-31FN and RD-93 have the gearbox on the bottom whereas the RD-33 and AL-31F have it on top.

You cannot interchange them.

 

[Franklin]

Article about how Pakistan still keeps its Mirage III/5 fleet flying and even buying discarded ones from abroad to fill the numbers. The Mirage III/5 is still the primary strike platform of the PAF and its also the main carrier of its SOW weapons platforms. I thought the JF-17 was supposed to be able to do all those things. So far its seems that its only the Chengdu J-7's that have been decommissioned for the new JF-17 units.

Thrifty at 50: Pakistan keeps aging Mirages flying

KAMRA, Pakistan: The sprawling complex at Kamra, west of Islamabad, reverberates at the thundering take-off of a Mirage Rose-1, the latest aging fighter jet to have been gutted and reassembled by the Pakistani Air Force.

Fifty years after Pakistan bought its first Mirages, many planes in the venerable fleet are still being patched up, overhauled and upgraded for use in combat, years after conventional wisdom dictates they should be grounded.

That includes one of the first two planes originally purchased from France’s Dassault in 1967, which was in a hangar at Kamra after its record fifth overhaul when AFP visited recently.

The techniques they have developed are reminiscent of — but far more high-tech and lethal than — the improvised methods used to keep classic American cars running on the streets of Havana.

“We have achieved such a capability that our experts can integrate any latest system with the aging Mirages,” says Air Commodore Salman M. Farooqi, deputy managing director of the Mirage Rebuild Factory (MRF) at the Kamra complex.

Pakistan bought its first Mirages to diversify its fleet, which in the late 1960s largely consisted of US-built planes: F-104 Starfighters, T-37 Tweety Birds and F-86 Sabres.

The Mirage became a popular choice, with the Air Force buying 17 different variants in later years, eventually owning the second-highest number of the fighter jets after France.

They performed bombing missions during Pakistan’s war with India in 1971 — one of the shortest conflicts in history, lasting just 13 days and leading to the creation of Bangladesh.

But Mirages flew on, also carrying out reconnaissance missions in India, and intercepting and shooting down Soviet and Afghan planes that violated Pakistani airspace during the Soviet war.

Usually, the jet has two or three life cycles, each spanning around 12 years. But overhauling them abroad was expensive for Pakistan, a developing country whose budget is already disproportionately tilted toward its military and which has historically received billions in military assistance from countries such as the US.

So, with the help of experts from Dassault, the air force decided if you want something done for the right price, you’ve got to do it yourself.

The Mirage Rebuild Factory was established at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in 1978, and in the years since has saved “billions” of dollars for Pakistan, according to Group Captain Muhammad Farooq, in charge of one of the maintenance hangars — though he said the exact figure was difficult to pin down.

The planes take some seven weeks to be overhauled and repainted, he said, adding that usually the MRF has the capacity for more than a dozen planes a year. Its calendar for the next decade or so is already booked up.

At least eight different Mirage variants, including the Mirage 5-EF, Mirage III-DP and Mirage-III Rose-I, were in one of the maintenance hangers when AFP visited.

Engineers and technicians were dismantling cockpit instrument panels and landing gear while undertaking a “non-destructive inspection,” essentially an X-ray to detect faults in the wings and airframe.

Dozens of engines awaiting overhaul were piled in one hangar. Even planes that had suffered accidents such as fires breaking out have been patched back together at the facility.

Pakistan has also been buying up discarded Mirages from other countries to bring through the facility, said retired Air Marshal Shahid Lateef.

The most important technological improvement, developed with the help of South Africa, is the ability to integrate air-to-air refueling, Farooqi said.

The “identification of friend and foe” (IFF) system, which detects when a Mirage has been locked on to by the system of another plane, was also a key development, he said.

But even with the improvements and cost-saving measures, the aging planes are becoming more difficult to maintain.

“They have outlived their lives... after their overhauls (they) have become highly unreliable, we even met with lots of accidents,” Lateef said.

The best option to replace them would be the Rafale, as neighbor and arch-rival India — which has also flown and maintained Mirages for decades — is doing, signing a deal with Dassault in 2016.

The price tag is too much for Pakistan, however, retired Air Commodore Tariq Yazdani said.

Instead Pakistan plans to replace them with the JF-17 Thunder aircraft that it co-developed and co-produced with China, the original manufacturer.

Even as it becomes more urgent to phase them out, Mirages’ status as the grand dames of Pakistani military aviation cannot be dismissed, Yazdani, who has logged 1,500 hours flying them, told AFP.

It is a “very agile aircraft capable of penetrating deep into the enemy’s territory without being detected by radar, which makes its sole mission -– to drop bombs on the enemy’s position -– quite easy,” he said.

“It is an old aircraft,” said aviation writer Alan Warnes, author of two books on the Pakistani air force. “But Pakistani pilots have been flying this plane with the utmost accuracy and expertise.”

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[gelgoog]

Article about how Pakistan still keeps its Mirage III/5 fleet flying and even buying discarded ones from abroad to fill the numbers. The Mirage III/5 is still the primary strike platform of the PAF and its also the main carrier of its SOW weapons platforms. I thought the JF-17 was supposed to be able to do all those things. So far its seems that its only the Chengdu J-7's that have been decommissioned for the new JF-17 units.

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Well it makes sense that they replace the more dated aircraft first. The issue with the MiG-21 was always that it has a teensy amount of space for the radar in that nosecone. It was originally designed as a clear skies fighter. Besides once you have air superiority the air combat performance of whatever you use to bomb things does not matter much. They might also have issues with weapon stocks? Dunno.

 

[Dizasta1]

Pakistan Air Force is looking forward to the JF-17 Thunder Block-lll, which will encompass all missions which the Mirages have been performing to date, and exceed those parameters. There were instances in the past where Pakistan Air Force had given it serious consideration to replace Mirage III/Vs with purchasing more MLU'd F-16s, but then sense prevailed and plans were dropped. Otherwise there were fully drawn plans to purchase sizable quantities of F-16s from air forces which had retired, moth balled or would soon retire their aircraft. The target was supposedly a fleet of about 120 Block-30s/40s and to augment this fleet with around 90 Block-52s. However due economy below par, and American having mood swings again, plans were shelved. Had things gone Pakistan's way, then Pakistan Air Force would've had well over 200 F-16s along with 300 JF-17s by 2025. This would've put Pakistan Air Force in its most primed state of war-readiness, historically.

Sensible minds were able to steer this plan away from F-16s, with the help of corruption in successive governments that almost killed the country's economy. And not forgetting the natural disasters, like the 2005 earthquake that crippled infrastructure with losses amounted in the billions of dollars and of course the devastating floods of 2011 which caused 1.7 million acres of arable land washed away. Nature and corruption forced Pakistan Air Force to remain focused on the JF-17 Thunders, and that was a blessing in disguise. Because had Pakistan chosen to go ahead with the F-16 fleet revitalization, then today US would have more than an empty IMF bailout threat to arm-twist Pakistan's foreign policy and War on Terror demands.

 

[gelgoog]

delete

 

[Blitzo]

Article about how Pakistan still keeps its Mirage III/5 fleet flying and even buying discarded ones from abroad to fill the numbers. The Mirage III/5 is still the primary strike platform of the PAF and its also the main carrier of its SOW weapons platforms. I thought the JF-17 was supposed to be able to do all those things. So far its seems that its only the Chengdu J-7's that have been decommissioned for the new JF-17 units.

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In addition to what others have said, if we look at the other aircraft that the PAF had in service at the time the first JF-17s entered service, the ones that JF-17 had replaced were among the oldest and least capable for their given roles (A-5s, as well as F-7s).
OTOH, PAF Mirages had gone through enough upgrades that they are much more capable than the A-5s and F-7s were, so they'll probably be among the last 3rd generation aircraft to be replaced by the JF-17s. Not to mention the Mirages are meaningfully larger aircraft than A-5s and F-7s, with benefits in payload and range that a larger size brings.

Remember the PAF still has well over a hundred F-7s in service and nearly two hundred Mirage III/5 together, and the rate of JF-17 production means it'll take many years to phase all the F-7s out before they can start retiring the Mirages.

That means in the interim it makes much more sense for Mirages to take on the burden of the strike role, while JF-17s with their far A2A superior sensor and weapons suite conducts the air superiority role. It doesn't mean JF-17 can't do strike, but it's about balancing the best roles for the best suited aircraft when there are still not enough JF-17s to do everything.