JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
- Start date
Dizasta1
Senior Member
So wait, let me get this straight ... are the indians not going to induct or operate any Tejas as a mainstay aircraft at all? I find that hard to believe. What, have they just given up on the project after 25 years in design and development? Wasn't Tejas suppose to replace all those aging MiG-21s? What are they gonna do now, buy more Rafales? Oh wait, they will buy more Mirages or Jaguars. Shouldn't they have done that in the first place? Imagine how many Mirages they could've procured after France started phasing them out. And could've put them through an extensive upgrade program. Then today the indians would've had a bigger fleet of Mirages, compared to what Pakistan has with F-16s.
I'm really surprised as well. It's $7.5 billion for 83 aircraft, which is $90M each.
And it looks like it is just for production, without any ongoing support/maintenance.
In comparison, the JF-17 is around $30M and the F-35 is currently around $95M
They already operate some Tejas in the IAF. Planning to induct more. Mark 1A is close to $100M USD which is RIDICULOUS. I wouldn't want to buy a single one at that price either if I were head of procurement at IAF. China could modify JF-17 blk3's to include more composites, WS-13, ESA radar, and newest electronics, and still be able to buy 2 for the price of 1 Tejas. That upgraded JF-17 alone would be much better than the Tejas Mark 1A but I bet the Indian military chauvinists would talk it up like it's some sort of super weapon rather than a real POS.
The Tejas Mark I is a $25 mil plane, but I never knew that the Mark IA is a jaw-dropping $94 mil, at least according to Wikipedia. That's almost as much as a J-20. Hilariously, J-20s already outnumber the number of Tejas.
At least JF-17 is a reasonably priced fighter, with export potential. The Tejas is something uniquely Indian, much like the Arjun MBT.
At least JF-17 is a reasonably priced fighter, with export potential. The Tejas is something uniquely Indian, much like the Arjun MBT.
The first ops Sqn have 8 birds full next year a IAF Sqn have normaly 18 fighters with Tejas planned 21 and IAF going for use again long time Jaguar very modernised
As underwhelming as the Tejas is, it is still a first effort and they've come up with a relatively original fighter supposedly designed specifically for IAF light fighter requirements. Indian programs are maybe a little too ambitious for where they're at now. Still managed to join a very exclusive club. Tejas is no threat to JF-17 at those prices.
Be nice to see JF-17 get further upgrades to at least include ESA radars so it can actually find serious export success as a budget Gripen NG that comes with no strings attached. Have any JF-17s in service been equipped with WS-13?
Be nice to see JF-17 get further upgrades to at least include ESA radars so it can actually find serious export success as a budget Gripen NG that comes with no strings attached. Have any JF-17s in service been equipped with WS-13?
Careful observers should treat Tejas as an instructive lesson rather than a joke. The high unit cost of Tejas is attributable to the following:
1. 100 million is probably not the incremental unit cost. It is probably a prorated total program cost. The Indian air Force needs to account for the entire development cost. However A fighter jet or any other merchandise can be sold profitably at incremental cost as bulk of the other program costs is already sunk. So if Tejas goes on the export market, it won’t be sold at unit price of $100 million.
2. Tejas is a textbook example of a meandering pursuit of technological sophistication well beyond a country’s actual technical capability. Tejas’ overall performance specification was modest. But the Indians insisted that the modest performance nonetheless be achieved with the most state of the art approach in all areas as a way to create a Big Bang to increase the sophistictiom and state of technology of the Indian aerospace industry. In this it was partially successful, albeit at the cost of an extremely long and costly development cycle that produced an modest product in the end.
1. 100 million is probably not the incremental unit cost. It is probably a prorated total program cost. The Indian air Force needs to account for the entire development cost. However A fighter jet or any other merchandise can be sold profitably at incremental cost as bulk of the other program costs is already sunk. So if Tejas goes on the export market, it won’t be sold at unit price of $100 million.
2. Tejas is a textbook example of a meandering pursuit of technological sophistication well beyond a country’s actual technical capability. Tejas’ overall performance specification was modest. But the Indians insisted that the modest performance nonetheless be achieved with the most state of the art approach in all areas as a way to create a Big Bang to increase the sophistictiom and state of technology of the Indian aerospace industry. In this it was partially successful, albeit at the cost of an extremely long and costly development cycle that produced an modest product in the end.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
Depends on what the original intention and objective of the program was. If it was slated to be entirely indigenous and only for domestic consumption then any foreign buys would just be pure opportunity cost/profit even if sold at a baseline incremental unit cost.
However if the Indian government had intended or set expectations for both domestic and the export market then I presumed they would have done the math to include foreign sale revenues into their initial expenditures.
If so, then they will most likely taken into account the R&R, development cost etc of the program i.e sunk cost. If that is the case then they would have to sell it at an average per unit cost otherwise they will run into the red.
At any rate I agree with you in principle. I think this program was too ambitious for the Indians at this point in time to go at it primarily alone. They would've been much better off partnering with another consortium or multinational.
With that being said, there is something to be said and gained from acquiring tribal knowledge of jet fighter development. Even if Tejas turns out to be a lemon, a very expensive lemon even, the knowledge and skills acquired would play a key role for their future domestic fighter programs.