JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[delft]

I think that CNBC article is tremendously short-sighted. Even though it's true that it'll be a while before Saudi Arabia can break dependence on the US, who says China is the automatic next "go to" country for Saudi Arabia to hitch a ride on? China wants a multi-polar world not to be the replacement of the US that you always hear American think what is China's goal around the world. If anything countries should learn from the US experience of wanting to be the policeman of the world. Why is this US-Saudi "split" after decades of close relations even being discussed if it weren't for the Saudis seeing themselves left out in the cold by US foreign policy? Why would China want to be the next US when it comes to policing the world after seeing how long held relations can be frayed by balancing allied interests with your own? Why would China want the headache of making all those promises Americans make to every country that they can't keep because every one of them have their own interests and they're bound to conflict?

If the JF-17 talks are true, what more of a symbol of where Saudi Arabia is heading. A Chinese designed aircraft built by Pakistan with European avionics. Where's the US in that equation? That's the stop-gap measure on the road to being an independent power. The Syrian situation just showed Saudi Arabia can't rely on the US. Why would they want that relation with China? China will probably be very happy to see Saudi Arabia become an independent power.

And why is the American oil-shale revolution always used a some sort of taunt to the world? So what! American oil independence doesn't eliminate oil as a strategic resource. If you go by the scenario of the taunting, oil prices drop meaning that's good for China. If China is the largest consumer of oil and Saudi Arabia's biggest customer, the money keeps flowing and China's influence grows.

A little OT:
The US will still want their hands on the oil supplies of other countries, not just China but also Japan, India, South Korea, as well as Europe. And they still want to supply KSA and other Middle Eastern countries with weapons and instructors.

 

[MastanKhan]

We all know that Western equipment even NATO partners get aircraft that have seals anf switches that if opened or broken activate to tell the supplier which invalidates the guarantees and agreements

A Turkish Air Force F16 which crashed into the Aegean Sea was recovered by the Turkish navy and after inspection the air force found seals locked into the aircraft and many other pieces equipment which they did not know about and hell Turkey is a NATO member and has the second largest standing army in NATO

Saudi F15 shot down two Iranain F4s in the 1980s they did only do that because the USAF E3 AWACS illuminated the targets all the Saudi pilot did was launch the missile try doing this against the Israeli F16 or F15s no chance

The new F16 C/D Block 52+ for the PAF are not allowd to leave the Pakistan air space they came with very strict operating conditions why do you think the rest of the order for 77 aircraft was cancelled

So whoever says the JF17 is not as well equipped as its Western counterparts really doesn't understand the whole reason for the project nor the aircraft, Pakistan has the source codes for the JF-17 how else did they integrate the Brazilian Mar-1

Pakistan can arm them with nuclear LACM as a matter of fact they can arm them with any weapon they want and it will work and the JF-17 has zero restriction, it can operate over the sea in the air over enemy territory wherever is the combat zone

In respect of this I would have the JF-17 over even a F15 Slam Eagle it offers Pakistan a capability no other aircraft will ever offer no matter how good friends we are with the supplier

I just hope the next Block II 50 units are delivered faster than the first Block I 50 we need a fast induction we need a vast vast fleet of this aircraft in all configurations

Hi,

Sir---it does not work like how you stated. Those boxes have seals because the u s does not want you to break into them and then re-design them.

The defence industry rules the us govt. Where the stuff is manufactured---the senator and congressman of that state has a lots of say. Manufacturing and sale of aircraft is there bread and butter. Their voters vote them in for the jobs that are created by the sle of these aircraft.

If there is an iota of deceit----the orders will be cancelled---manufacturer will not allow this kind of deceit---. The senator and congressman of that state won't allow it----. It simply won't happen.

Okay---they is no such thing like popping up pilot seats and shutting down the aircraft----. The manufacture will not do that at all. Their trade is based on a matter of trust---if you do to one---you will do the the others.

You may not be able to lock onto to the us aircraft---not because it has a that little 'worm' in it---but because the u s knows what the shortcomings are of the equipment + the source codes.

The order of 77 was cancelled because pak waited too long to place the order----2005 earthquake broke its economic back. the aircraft are still vilble if pak wants them.

Paf F16 can do whatever they want---fly across the border into india or wherever make strike missions or do air combat.

All this mis-information is designed to create uncertainity.

The AGE OLD QUESTION comes to mind-----WHO BENEFITS from this mis-information.

 

[Dizasta1]

The order of 77 was cancelled because pak waited too long to place the order----2005 earthquake broke its economic back. the aircraft are still vilble if Pakistan wants them.

The F-16 Block-52s were provided under FMS (foreign military sales), undertaken by the U.S Dept of Defence, within the framework of U.S Aid to Pakistan. Which means that Pakistan's position, although economically not sound due to the earthquake, did NOT mean that they weren't able to afford the 77 Block-52s. The proposed procurement was deliberated upon, since the strategic interest weighed heavily in favor of establishing the aircraft manufacturing base for Pakistan's aviation industry. Hence the JF-17 Thunder program moved into the top slot of Pakistan's military procurement plan and not the F-16s.

In addition, the initial Block-52 procurement plan, was to go for 36 F-16s in the first batch and the subsequent batches would have totalled 77 Block-52s. However, this was further reduced to just 18 F-16 Block-52s, from the initial 36. Which is another hint that Pakistan Air Force was increasingly reluctant to go 77 F-16 Block-52s. Instead, the procurement plan was revamped and the F-16 sales program outlook shaped into upgrades for F-16s already serving in Pakistan Air Force's fighter-fleet. This included the refurbishment of the (28/34 built) F-16 A/B Block-15 OCUs (of which only 14 have been delivered so far), which were kept in storage or flown by US Navy Aggressors (due to US sanctions, i.e Pressler Amendment), as well as, Falcon Star, the Mid-Life Upgrade, AIM-120/AIM-9s, JDAMs, Sniper Targeting Pods, host Air-Base upgrades and training for Pakistan Air Force's fighter-pilots.

So the whole sales-program, was markedly different from the Pre-2005 procurement plan.

Also, to say that the aircraft are still viable, if Pakistan wants them. Either means that Pakistan suddenly found itself sitting a mountain of gold, being able to afford both the development and production of (250) JF-17 Thunders, as well as, procuring (77) F-16 C/D Block-52s. The only viable direction for Pakistan at the time (2005), was to pursue, full throttle, on the production of JF-17 Thunders. Where the capability of producing it's own combat-aircraft, was far more important than the procurement of an otherwise outstanding aircraft, the F-16!

==================================

P.S: Take it from an Achakzai, next time you post, do a little bit of research.

Khuday Paman!

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

What I am talking about the availability is of new F16's---. Not those that were sanctioned or otherwise.

I would suggest a little common sense----when it says---they are still available---does not mean you may have the funds.

Let me make it a little simpler----a chappal kabab and naan are available at the local peshawri restaurant---you need money to buy it.

This was not the important part---the important part was the rumor that is circulating in pakistan regarding kill switches.

There are no kill switches---no defence contractor installs kill switches in their primary merchandise sold to any country legally.

So---basically an F16 going into neighbor country would suddenly become impotent and possibly be shot down.

Is that what the paks think----it reeks of stupidity and lack of understanding the americans---an american would never allow its number one fighter aircraft to be shot down by a russian missile launched from a russian aircraft.

No american industrial complex will allow it to happen intentionally---. F16 is the pride of the u s aeronautical industry---. That industrial complex will assist shooting down of a russian origin plane at any cost.

I say again---paks should look at---'who benefits if the F16's don't operate'----there is only one entity---nd that is its neighbor.

 

[timepass]

Hi,

This was not the important part---the important part was the rumor that is circulating in pakistan regarding kill switches.

There are no kill switches---no defence contractor installs kill switches in their primary merchandise sold to any country legally.

So---basically an F16 going into neighbor country would suddenly become impotent and possibly be shot down.

Is that what the paks think----it reeks of stupidity and lack of understanding the americans---an american would never allow its number one fighter aircraft to be shot down by a russian missile launched from a russian aircraft.

No american industrial complex will allow it to happen intentionally---. F16 is the pride of the u s aeronautical industry---. That industrial complex will assist shooting down of a russian origin plane at any cost.

I say again---paks should look at---'who benefits if the F16's don't operate'----there is only one entity---nd that is its neighbor.

Never ever believe on Uncle SAM..... you never know my friend what comes next from them....

The above quote is not comes just blank, we have proven experience from several decades....

 

[nabil_05]

Geo tv just confirmed what i stated on last page, joint manufacturing seeked by Saudis, granted. Lets see whats next.

 

[Munir]

Hi,

What I am talking about the availability is of new F16's---. Not those that were sanctioned or otherwise.

I would suggest a little common sense----when it says---they are still available---does not mean you may have the funds.

Let me make it a little simpler----a chappal kabab and naan are available at the local peshawri restaurant---you need money to buy it.

This was not the important part---the important part was the rumor that is circulating in pakistan regarding kill switches.

There are no kill switches---no defence contractor installs kill switches in their primary merchandise sold to any country legally.

So---basically an F16 going into neighbor country would suddenly become impotent and possibly be shot down.

Is that what the paks think----it reeks of stupidity and lack of understanding the americans---an american would never allow its number one fighter aircraft to be shot down by a russian missile launched from a russian aircraft.

No american industrial complex will allow it to happen intentionally---. F16 is the pride of the u s aeronautical industry---. That industrial complex will assist shooting down of a russian origin plane at any cost.

I say again---paks should look at---'who benefits if the F16's don't operate'----there is only one entity---nd that is its neighbor.

I had fled the other forum not to read these kind of personal opinions. I seriously do not believe that this poster is a Pakistani in USA.

We have Snowden an Wiki Leaks showing how reliable the USA is. Not only terrorism but everything that is possible to spy on will be spied on. WE talk about economic spying (the economic hitman) but also governmental spying (every leader or government is spied on) and surely every SMS/voicemail/app/Facebook/etc/etc... Where the USA starts shivering that some part of the JSF are made in China (and want to replace them ASAP)...

Yet mr Masta comes here telling us what the reality is.I have to find the ignore button fast.

 

[MastanKhan]

I had fled the other forum not to read these kind of personal opinions. I seriously do not believe that this poster is a Pakistani in USA.

We have Snowden an Wiki Leaks showing how reliable the USA is. Not only terrorism but everything that is possible to spy on will be spied on. WE talk about economic spying (the economic hitman) but also governmental spying (every leader or government is spied on) and surely every SMS/voicemail/app/Facebook/etc/etc... Where the USA starts shivering that some part of the JSF are made in China (and want to replace them ASAP)...

Yet mr Masta comes here telling us what the reality is.I have to find the ignore button fast.

Sir,

Now it has come down name calling---just because the information goes against your belief of conspiracy theories.

 

[Zahid]

Dear friends we are going way Off-Topic. What I am seeing and what Munir has alluded to is one argument that has been rehashed on Pakistani defence forums practically infinite number of times. Why spoil SDF for an itch that finds no cure.

GEO TV is one of the premiere news channels in Pakistan, belonging to Jang Media group. But in the concerned report, they are quoting 'a US Journal'. So, they are just quoting an article that has already been shared over here. It does not seem as though they have tapped their sources in Government of Pakistan to confirm this story. So, I can not be positive about GEO TV reporting this story. We should await something concrete, or at least substantial before we can get any more excited.

 

[Dizasta1]

Hi, What I am talking about the availability is of new F16's---. Not those that were sanctioned or otherwise.

Listen buddy, your argument started off by dismissing that there are any hidden locks or kill-switches in the F-16s. If you had your eyes wide open and read my reply, you must have noticed that I did not even touch the subject of kill-switches. For the simple reason that I don't discuss things which are ambiguous or just plain rumors.

Yes, the F-16s are available for sale to Pakistan, if they choose to procure the aircraft. However, I specifically said that Pakistan was not going for the F-16s, due to JF-17 Thunder production.

I would suggest a little common sense----when it says---they are still available---does not mean you may have the funds.

You really ought to apply that common sense to yourself, read your post and my reply again, and then come up with a more intelligent response.

Let me make it a little simpler----a chappal kabab and naan are available at the local peshawri restaurant---you need money to buy it.

Again, as I stated earlier, the sale of the F-16s is via FMS (Foriegn Military Sales) which is undertaken by United States Department of Defence, under tha auspices of U.S Foreign Aid Program.

So, if you are intelligent enough, you will easily understand, that Pakistan didn't really need the money to procure the (77) F-16s from Lockheed Martin. However, if you know anything about logistics and maintenance support, then you would know that Pakistan Air Force foresaw the limitations it would have faced, if it had to cater to the logistics/maintenance of (77) F-16s, as well as, the production of (250) JF-17 Thunders.

Surely you can appreciate that just (18) F-16s, would be less costly to maintain, as oppose to 77!

This was not the important part---the important part was the rumor that is circulating in Pakistan regarding kill switches.

Listen my friend, I will say this only once ...... the kill-switches rumor did spread in Pakistan. However, this is not what Pakistan Air Force and military leadership would go on, when making strategic national interest, decisions.

So, I would request you to just drop this subject and move on.

There are no kill switches---no defence contractor installs kill switches in their primary merchandise sold to any country legally.

Again ...... kill-switches or no kill-switches, it doesn't matter. Pakistan Air Force made a concsious decision to go for just (18) Block-52s, as opposed to 77. Favoring JF-17 Thunders production over the Block-52s.

I don't think it is that hard to understand ..... is it?

So---basically an F16 going into neighbor country would suddenly become impotent and possibly be shot down.

If you could us all a favor and go do little bit of reading up on the legal framework on the operational parameters of the F-16 Block-52s by Pakistan Air Force, as stated by the United States. It would make life easier for youself!

Is that what the paks think----it reeks of stupidity and lack of understanding the americans---an american would never allow its number one fighter aircraft to be shot down by a russian missile launched from a russian aircraft.

Okay, firstly, I would appreciate if you refer to citizens of Pakistan, as Pakistanis and not as paks.

Secondly, your argument seems to be more repetitive, as oppose to being constructive.

I say again---paks should look at---'who benefits if the F16's don't operate'----there is only one entity---nd that is its neighbor.

Good point ....... now go ahead and analyse this, and then come back to us with an intelligent post!