JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Baibar of Jalat]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

The Chinese radar specs still confuse me because of different data given by a variety of sources.

Is there an official or semi official source regarding the capabilities of the radar?

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

>>>I don't know how you would prove certain part is more modern. I know that even if certain parts are only produced in Pakistan, when China started to mass produce JL-8, they would've started to at least shift all local productions to Chinese makers. They are too paranoid to not produce all of the parts locally.

Your last sentence is indeed the right remark. Pakistan is used to get important parts and if needed it will build them. If it is not a risk it will stay as import. But JF17 is not about importing parts. It is raising industry which will start with assmebly knowledge, basic aircraft parts, integrating and testing weapons and avionics and eventually it will make the planes better of move to a new design. China has the cash, manpower and intellect to absorb all in much smaller time frame. Pakistan is just a small nation compared to China but it can excell in certain fields like no other. It maintained Chinese, American and French planes under ery difficult circumstances. To tell a simple fact... The F16A's send to the US dor MLU have Pakistani updates. And we surel can say that not everything is left in the plane when they left. If Pakistan is able to get technology (we frankly do not really care how) to build Babur and Ra'ad, then it will be able to handle projects like JF17.

okay

>>>don't know what your point is. The plane is for PAF's requirements first, that's why they are sent to PAF for testing. If you see JF-17 in CFTE, it would be a pretty good sign that PLAAF is really thinking about purchasing the plane. Before JF-17, China already developed J-10, JH-7A and started local production of su-27. So, are you basically looking for Chinese on this board to say that without Pakistan's input, China would not be able to crank out modern planes?

Nopes. I say that China can do a lot but Pakistani pilots are fine tuning a lot more. J6 was less then F6. J7 was less then F7. Chinese K8 is still less then Pakistani K8. And JF17 will have a lot more western parts to be more then FC1. Not that China is not able to... But China is far more busy with J10B, J11 or next top model. I did say, a decade ago China produced low tech, today China moved towards top few. In a decade it will be top 3. But Pakistan did contribute in certain fields.

I don't think you know what you are talking about, sorry.

>>>I can tell you that su-27sm is more lethal than MKK and in certain ways, better than MKI. As for PG, it's J-7, who cares?

I can tell you that others will say MKI is a lot better. I have no insight nor capabiliy to judge that. I have seen some of the planes peform but if you see 100 planes in a year doing nice aerobatics you do not see how well they perform in real combat.

The PG might be a lot more dangerous then sugested. During Pak India war the Gnat was the most hated plane. Just the size. Nothing else. PG is small and agile. I rather stay out of WVR. In Pakistani arena there will be a lot more WVR then maybe in China-Taiwan... We had J6 to fight Mig21... Some might laugh but we would still remind others that these maybe less advanced plane saved out b... It did a lot more pain to say goodbye then many would think. Last decade or 2 we had J7P as backbone together with a few 3 decades old block15 F16 to face IAF with plenty dangerous plane. We could handle that. I think we will be able to handle a lot more then others predict.

It's pointless to go any further on this, we disagree. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[coolieno99]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Pakistan does not get TOT for the avionics / radar.
Pakistan does not get TOT for weapon systems.
Pakistan does not get TOT for the engine.

That is why Pakistan is looking to the West for these sub-systems.

I think Pakistan is trying to match what her arch rival, India, is doing. India is going outside of Russia, her traditional arms supplier, to obtain state of the art equipment from the West. Western avionics are somewhat more advance than China's.
As far as TOT for the engine and avionics is concerned, the reason is not so much that China doesn't want to; It is more likely Pakistan's infrastructure cannot support those programs right now. Once Pakistan's infrastructure is built up, than TOT can take place.
If France does TOT of state of the art jet engines to Russia (Powerjet joint venture), and France will not do the same to China (due to West embargo of sensitive tech to China); it's no reason for China to withheld tech from her allies.
Basically, China's 2 closest political allies are Russia and Pakistan.

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[Munir]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Yet the customer wants Pakistani weapons, avionics and parts and not Chinese/Russian equipment... Who will get that profit? Besides the plane does mot have that marginal profit. It is not a bread...

About depending on Chinese avionics... Hardly. The plane is designed to be plug and pay, more then any other plane in history. And maybe Pakistani industry needs to develop but knowing they can handle Ra'ad or Babur, they will be able to do more.

Do they really need TOT for RD93? Maintenance is enough.

Do they reall need TOT for Radar? They have more then a few other options. And they are not going to produce or improve radars they can buy on the market...

Do the need TOT for Chinese weapons? Nopes. They will move towards western options.

 

[Londo Molari]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

And the same would be true for Pakistan. But this is where the Chinese were smart: They know Pakistan would not be able to manufacture the high end items like avionics, or engines. Not for anytime soon. So this way, Chinese will stand to earn more than their Pakistan counterparts because the most expensive items are the engines, avionics, and weapons.

lol its not about being smart, its about being fair. Thats how business is done everywhere in the world. Attaining the aircraft itself was Pakistan's goal. Their primary agenda is having 250 fighters of that capability. The business and ToT side is only a secondary consideration for Pakistan, and the profits are a neccessary incentive for China to work on the project, because they don't need the JF-17 for strategic reasons like Pakistan does.

Pakistan will receive TOT to build up to 50% of the airframe.

Pakistan does not get TOT for the avionics / radar.
Pakistan does not get TOT for weapon systems.
Pakistan does not get TOT for the engine.

That is why Pakistan is looking to the West for these sub-systems.

According to the news I've read, the agreement states that Pakistan will get as much ToT as it can handle (except Russian engines), so China had to carefully pick and choose what to put in JF-17, because they may end up having to share it with Pakistan in future. For this reason some sensitive components are not China's absolute best. But for the foreseeable future, Pakistan is not in a position to absorb much more than the airframe and limited avionics technology anyway. Even assembling a fourth-generation fighter like the JF-17 will improve Pakistan's know-how by leaps and bounds.

I missed this sentence. That's not true. Pakistani firms did not make the JF17 HUD. Chinese firms did. If you recall, Chinese firms exhibited the JF17 HUD back in Zuhai 2006.

No, because Chinese firms also exhibited radars and weapons for JF-17, but now PAF is going to use French radar and weapons for their versions.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

lol its not about being smart, its about being fair. Thats how business is done everywhere in the world. Attaining the aircraft itself was Pakistan's goal. Their primary agenda is having 250 fighters of that capability. The profits and business side is only a secondary consideration for Pakistan, and its a neccessary incentive for China to work on the project, because they don't need the JF-17 like Pakistan does.

Whatever you want to call it, the fact is, Chinese will win out on this deal $$. Pakistan cannot build the subsystems. Only China can.

Western nations may give TOT for some Avionics, but they wont' allow Pakistan to export it.

These countries who will order the FC1 will buy it using Chinese sub-systems like they did with the J7, and K8.

Wrong. The agreement states that Pakistan will get as much ToT as it can handle (except Russian engines), so China has to carefully pick and choose what to put in JF-17, because they may end up having to share it with Pakistan in future. But for the foreseeable future, Pakistan is not in a position to absorb much more than the airframe and limited avionics technology. Even assembling a fourth-generation fighter like the JF-17 will improve Pakistan's know-how by leaps and bounds.

Pakistan is actively seeking Western Sub-systems for the next batch after the initial 50 that uses Chinese components.

Why are they seeking Western Sub-systems? Because they want TOT. Why would they want TOT if China was willing to give it to them?

Are you saying that Chinese subsystems is beyond Pakistan's industrial capability yet somehow, Pakistan can manufacture more advanced Western subsystems? Sorry that doesn't make any sense.

The real reason Pakistan is going out to the west is because China will not give them TOT. The Joint venture never included Avionics, weapons, or engine. Show me the contract that states Pakistan is going to be given full TOT for Chinese subsystems and weapons. You can't produce it.

Pakistan will only receive TOT for 50% of the AirFrame. Maybe 100% of the Air Frame in the future.

So..while the Avionics, weapons, engine is NOT included, China is willing to sell them to Pakistan, and it has. (the first batch of JF17s use Chinese avionics, weapons with a Russian engine).

No, because Chinese firms also exhibited radars and weapons for JF-17, but now PAF is going to use French radar and weapons for their versions.

PAF is still negotiating. Nobody knows what the second batch of JF17 will look like. It may use Western components, but I doubt Pakistan gets TOT, and I definitely doubt Pakistan gets export rights.

If Pakistan does not get export rights to Western subsystems, then guess what? China steps in, and fulfills the order. $$ to China side. The WS13 will definitely be used in future FC1 orders since Russia has stated it would not allow re-export.

If Russia says no to export, western nations will also say NO to re-export.

 

[tphuang]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Yet the customer wants Pakistani weapons, avionics and parts and not Chinese/Russian equipment... Who will get that profit? Besides the plane does mot have that marginal profit. It is not a bread...

which customer are you talking about? They don't have a customer yet.

 

[Zahid]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Whatever you want to call it, the fact is, Chinese will win out on this deal $$.

Pakistan's relation with China is not adversarial. If Pakistan's needs are met and China makes money, then it is a win-win situation.

Pakistan cannot build the subsystems. Only China can.

This conjecture is debatable, but feeling your pain, I will let you have it your way.

Western nations may give TOT for some Avionics, but they wont' allow Pakistan to export it.

These countries who will order the FC1 will buy it using Chinese sub-systems like they did with the J7, and K8.

So these are your predictions. We shall see how things turn out when we get to them.

Pakistan is actively seeking Western Sub-systems for the next batch after the initial 50 that uses Chinese components.

Why are they seeking Western Sub-systems? Because they want TOT. Why would they want TOT if China was willing to give it to them

Are you saying that Chinese subsystems is beyond Pakistan's industrial capability yet somehow, Pakistan can manufacture more advanced Western subsystems? Sorry that doesn't make any sense.?

You seem to be sure that PAF's interest in Western Sub-systems is based purely on TOT. This is yet another conjecture on your part.

The real reason Pakistan is going out to the west is because China will not give them TOT. The Joint venture never included Avionics, weapons, or engine. Show me the contract that states Pakistan is going to be given full TOT for Chinese subsystems and weapons. You can't produce it.

You seem privvy to the details that you are quoting above. Based on your categorical statements in this and other posts of yours, one just might imagine that you were the part of the negotiating team from the Chinese side. Before you ask others to produce copies of contracts, can you provide the sources upon which you have based your unsupported claims?

Pakistan will only receive TOT for 50% of the AirFrame. Maybe 100% of the Air Frame in the future.

See my response above. You just prove that you are pulling things out of thin air. You can not possibly know and you want your conjectures to be taken as facts!

If Pakistan does not get export rights to Western subsystems, then guess what? China steps in, and fulfills the order. $$ to China side.

I will be very happy to see that actually. China making money makes me happy. More incentive to work in future joint ventures. That can only be good.

If Russia says no to export, western nations will also say NO to re-export.

Apart from making Western nations seem like Russia's lackeys what is your point? This thread is a veritable graveyard of naysayers. Look at the very first post on this thread!

JF17 can not be built because it is an old / bad design ..... That ended with the fourth prototype.

JF17 can not be exported to Pakistan because Russia would not allow export of RD-93 .... That ended with Pakistan receiving and displaying JF17 on 23rd March Parade last year.

I think that Indians ought to just give up on this whole JF17 thread and discuss LCA & Kaveri and the many advantages on MKI on some other forum. Each time they make a prediction, it flies back in their face. But they never learn.

You seem hung up on TOT, indigenization, 90% capable but 100% homemade, and other such stuff. Pakistanis are not paranoid like that. They are smarter and much more flexible in their approach, and hence achieve credible results. I find this whole topic of Tech Export from China to Pakistan foreign to this thread. There ought to be a seperate thread for this.

 

[challenge]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

PAF did wanted french make radar,but vhina insist that first batch will be fitted with nanjing radar.itself make have based on israel russian input.
instead of selecting RD-93, PAF should have opt for M-88-2,which is more lighter,better fuel consumption and offer better thrust.

 

[flyboy2008]

Re: New JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

PAF did wanted french make radar,but vhina insist that first batch will be fitted with nanjing radar.itself make have based on israel russian input.
instead of selecting RD-93, PAF should have opt for M-88-2,which is more lighter,better fuel consumption and offer better thrust.

Yeah, well see this is why China gets things DONE, and Pakistan doesn't.

The FC1/JF17 project was already delayed due to endless design changes requested by the Pakistanis. This delayed the project.

Then they wanted Western subsystems for the first batch. China refused because they know it'd take much more time.

China insisted the first batch use Chinese components. And Pakistan relented. Otherwise, the JF17 today would still be non-existent.

Note: Pakistan still has not finished deals to secure sub-system parts.

China knows how to complete a project. Pakistan doesn't.

Today, the Pakistan is very happy with Chinese subsystems, and the JF17 is flying! Everyone is happy.

Trust me: Pakistan would love to have Chinese TOT subsystems, but China refused. That's why Pakistan is looking for TOT outside.

Long term of course: Pakistan may give up Western subsytems also. Why?

Let's examine the F16 deal.

Yesterday: Pakistan made an ugly face to Chinese planes, and sought F16s because China refused the J10, at the time, it's best plane.

Today: Pakistan is regretting purchasing the F16. Why? Because today, China offers the J10. The J10 is better, and cheaper than the F16. Pakistan is now regretting F16.

The same thing will occur with Avionics.

Today: Pakistan makes an ugly face to Chinese avionics because they perceive it to be inferior to Western avionics.

Tomorrow: Pakistan will regret Western avionics, etc because Chinese are better and cheaper.

China's avionics will catch up soon, <5 years. And Pakistan may then regret buying Western Avionics / weapons because Chinese is better, and cheaper, and more reliable.